Stellantis pleads guilty, will pay $300m for illegally concealing the amount of pollution created by its diesel engine vehicles

[Lumberjack_MC]

They never say what Stellantis was trying to achieve with the greater pollution. It's not like they just wanted to destroy the environment. They must have gotten better MPG or performance with the worse emissions. With VW it was way better MPG so it was good for the consumer, bad for the environment.

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[montechie]

I just read about this study the other day in relation to the VW fiasco and multitude of other "institutional lying" scandals: Groups are more likely to lie than individuals.

The crib notes version: "We observed that groups lie significantly more than individuals when group members face mutual financial gain and have to coordinate an action in order to realize that financial gain,"

 

[NachoRuby]

I never understood the equation. Diesels on average produce 30% greater efficiency then gas at only about a 2.5% emissions increase. Yet politicians keep increasing emission regulations on diesel thus decreasing their efficiency. It’s almost like someone wants less economical transportation…

*numbers are made up but represent real world comparisons

Less overall carbon emissions with diesel, but more localized "soot", creating more localized air quality issues. At least that's the idea behind it all. Diesels are more efficient, so obviously will dump less carbon in total. But the carbon they do emit tends to be largely in the form of small particles (soot). In Europe, gasoline cars with direct injection have gasoline particulate filters, just like we have dpfs here, because direct injection also creates more soot than traditional port injection. I don't think many cars here have gasoline particulate filters yet.

In general, the idea is diesels create more localized pollution, gassers create more greenhouse gasses.

 

[texanjeeper]

I never understood the equation. Diesels on average produce 30% greater efficiency then gas at only about a 2.5% emissions increase. Yet politicians keep increasing emission regulations on diesel thus decreasing their efficiency. It’s almost like someone wants less economical transportation…

*numbers are made up but represent real world comparisons

I could explain it to you, but the liberals here would lose their minds, and talking politics is against the site rules.

 

[eeTwidget]

I could explain it to you, but the liberals here would lose their minds, and talking politics is against the site rules.

Lol. Ironically that’s the same reason I pretend I don’t understand things. Life is easier the less you know

 

[dlromo]

We all have to bite our tongues sometimes, no matter how of a dumb ass the other is.

 

[Trout Safari]

The only thing I care about is who get's the 300m

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yes and no.

Air pollutants related to emissions (diesel NOx emissions specifically) have been linked to increased infant mortality rates. In other words, it is a serious problem, especially in places like Europe where an ass load of people drive diesel vehicles.

I think what was meant is where fine money goes.......... I'd be fine with it if it went into EPA clean-up, testing, enforcement, etc. but it doesn't.
For a few fines, It's spent at the discretion of certain people. Otherwise, into the treasury to be spent by congress.
When I pay a traffic fine here, it goes to the schools. That's fine.
But when it's the feds - that fine money doesn't go to help clean the air or a spill.

I agree all what you've said, especially how concerned Europe is and how it's killed there. London has a really nasty history with killer emissions.
There needs to be some teeth to law and rule, but the fines - where those too often end up is my gripe.

And yes, this is news about old new -

for more than 100,000 older Ram pickup trucks and Jeep sport-utility vehicles in its U.S. lineup
3 model years - affected diesel-powered vehicles span model years 2014 to 2016

As far as who gets the money - in SOME cases, it's going to go to whatever pet projects the man decides they go to. That's what the fuss is about government fine money.
It doesn't go to related projects, or budgets, or fixing anything. Some goes to the general treasury where congress can spend it however, there have been penalties and certain agency fines that actually go to pet projects and not to the treasury.

 

[j.o.y.ride]

The only thing I care about is who get's the 300m

Usually the treasury for general usage.

 

[yoda13]

I loathe the emissions standards on diesels today. The argument used to be it was like it used to be when cats were first installed on cars. Things would get more reliable. From most of what I have seen the emissions requirements harm or cripple mileage and still tend to be very unreliable.

Having said that, companies know the rules regardless of what I might think of them, so if they knowingly break them, then they have to deal with the consequences when caught.

 

[Dennis K]

The decision to lie and cheat in order to offer a product they knew wasn't going to pass is 100% a Stellantis problem. Nobody told them they had to offer a diesel, and if the only way they could do it is by lying, then the decision to proceed is entirely a Stellantis issue, not an environmental problem.

This $300m that you know they will pass on to consumers is entirely due to the poor management decisions within Stellantis.

Blaming the rules to cover for the liars is very bad precedent.

Stellantis was only formed in 2021. This sh*t is from 2015 or so...

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

you know this kind of stuff just has "top-down management problem" written all over it.

Set unreasonable goals, give no leniency for reality, and threaten people's jobs for not being able to make fiction into reality, and suddenly you've got senior project managers cutting corners to appease their unruly bosses.

I disagree.

This has "Abusive governmental regulation (EPA) problem" written all over it and the vehicle MFR is the abused employee of its unruly bosses (EPA) if you will.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Top down management? So it's instantly the problem of management, even though it's rules and laws that say "thou shalt........."
It may also be inept lower management or even teams below them with slackers.
But let's of course always blame management. It's the internet so it's always management.

I've seen instances of where management gives a task that's doable - barely, but can be done, if the team is decent and tries. But instead of meeting goals, the down lows fake it as long as they can, falsify records and more.. They get creative in hiding their malpractice. Upper management doesn't always know until later.
And of course it can be those down below management that are the slackers, they get found out and then management works to hide the deeds to save face.
I could be any level or any combination of the levels.
Management can have unrealistic expectations - or they can have realistic expectations and the teams below just don't get it figured out.

If Jeep wasn't today part of the diverse structure it's a part of and was lacking the diverse offering of vehicles - the fleet - they'd never survive today's government expectations.

Be thankful they aren't a stand-alone company with only the Wrangler and Gladiator as offerings, or they'd be no more.
In the past when the EPA has said "you will do this by xxxx" GM and Ford have said yessir, we can do that and better, but last time it seemed GM wasn't so fast to ask "how high". It's getting awfully tough and unless you are big and diverse with global resources, you won't survive.
But it's all on management, of course, when anything goes wrong.

 

[downtroddengoat]

I just read about this study the other day in relation to the VW fiasco and multitude of other "institutional lying" scandals: Groups are more likely to lie than individuals.

The crib notes version: "We observed that groups lie significantly more than individuals when group members face mutual financial gain and have to coordinate an action in order to realize that financial gain,"

I would assume that it also goes to consequences. If I am acting in my own stead, I have to pay the consequences for my acts. When people can lump themselves into the masses, they generally do not bear direct consequences.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Welcome to capitalism.

I would say welcome to governmental over regulation rather than blaming it on capitalism.

Fair trade is not causing this. Over regulation by unaccountable bureaucrats is causing this.

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