Strike has begun

[BourbonRunner]

You would think this is a positive for the employees. I am not privy to the auto industry directly but I know alot of companies offer stock as payment/retirement. Decided to open the googler and they even are getting profit sharing at GM.. GM autoworkers eligible for up to $10,250 in profit-sharing for 2021 (detroitnews.com)

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

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[The Duck of Earl]

I'll dip my toes in here, not to debate all of the merits of pro corporation vs employee, but everyone is missing what will likely be the outcome of all of this and that this fight is likely a bit short-sighted. If the UAW gets anywhere close to even half of their demands, the big 3 will just pivot to less work being handled in house and thus less jobs for the union workers. This is already playing out at John Deere as an effect of their last round of contract negotiations as an example.

Automation and advanced robotics is already lowering the need for human labor, and expensive labor costs will only accelerate this. The suppliers and contract manufacturers will be winners in all this as well, particularly in the short term, as they will not be bound by the same contracts / labor costs, and the big 3 will outsource more of the components and likely more of the assembly.

So maybe some more tenured employees win with greater pay today while they are closer to retirement anyway, but the newer hires will face increasingly stronger headwinds for availability of work under the new supposedly better contracts. And at some point, the value of a particular task should be capped, from an economic/business standpoint awarding annual increases across the board even to those already at the top of the pay scale for their particular role makes very little sense.

 

[Hootbro]

The problem with being a sheep duped into the perspective of a wolf is two-fold:

A. You don't know that you're duped.
B. You eventually become dinner at the time of the wolves' choosing.

It was a simple question, not 4D chess.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

Is this what makes you feel good about overpaying for a product? Or that the workers may be underpaid, whether based on COLI, or exponential exec pay disparity?

Whether or not they own stock in the company, it's pretty fair to say that the workers are also heavily invested.

not to debate all of the merits of pro corporation vs employee

That's not really the debate playing out.

If there were a bunch of hungry executives struggling to make the notes on their several mansions, while the greedy unions were making unreasonable demands, then perhaps.

 

[Alpine Warthog]

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

Not attacking you Chuck, however Marx was nothing if not a man full of jealousy and anger. He called the sky blue and then said it's color should be given to everything. Somehow more idiots started calling him a visionary. My eyes can't roll hard enough with anything associated with Marx.

But on your point: yes, completely unregulated capitalism can allow monopolies and the complete abuse of workers. These companies during the time of the writing of "The Jungle" and other type works were using Gestapo style and other illegal tactics to keep people in line. Already illegal and overlooked by corrupt politicians and others in places of power.
However, we as workers also have to accept some responsibility for taking these jobs and accepting the pay and working conditions as well. Sorry, I'm not roofing the Socialist HQ with a 12/12 pitch 60 feet in the air for ANY amount of money. Not doing it, my sense of self preservation will not allow it. We don't have slave labor, and we don't have indentured servants either. During Covid, I left one town and went to another for various reasons but ultimately I went to were the work was. Not only did I change location, I changed industries and then did it again two years later. I went from being military police, to retail manager to security/account manager to IT professional in just 4 years time. If you don't like your job, leave it. Create your own company or find another. The conditions of the workers and workplace is what we employees allow. Maybe this is something just unique to me or maybe I've got just enough FU in my blood to stand up to conditions I won't accept but I learned a while ago my success is from my own work and the grace of God. Just like in ships, the boat captain has to contend with the possibility of a mutiny. Its a balance of doing what has to be done to preserve the ship (or in this case, the company) and keeping your sailors happy. If they don't do that, the sailors won't show back up at the end of the next port call (at worst) they make the captain walk the plank. SO, like I said before, unions HAD their place, but now they are controlled by the same sharks that run some of these companies. So employees have a choice to make. In my area, Cummins employees make an AVERAGE of $88K! The median salary for my area? $37K. They aren't hurting. But honestly, I kinda hope the union get it's wish. It'll drive more outsourcing to little towns like mine and others in Appalachia further decentralizing production and not only improving my area but also weakening the unions further. More robots in the big, union factory, and more small-town USA, non-union, people jobs. It's a lot harder to unionize a little 100 person company.

 

[KC_H]

No we haven't seen this play out before unless you are referring to events which precipitated the Bolshevik and French Revolutions, or Black Sunday.
Wealthy Middle Class is a relatively new socio-economic strata.

The facts are if you do not properly regulate capitalism it plays out like a large game of Monopoly as we are now seeing on the macro level.

https://dlab.berkeley.edu/news/explaining-80-20-rule-pareto-distribution#:~:text=Policymakers may not realize that,in countries around the world.

"Pareto in the Real World

The Pareto distribution has major implications in our society. Consider its original use case, describing the distribution of wealth across individuals in a society. The vast majority of the world’s citizens are clustered at a low level of wealth, while a small percentage of the population controls the vast majority of all wealth. Policymakers may not realize that wealth is distributed according to a Pareto distribution rather than a normal distribution, and this gap in understanding could lead to suboptimal policy decisions in countries around the world."

I was snapped out of my Pollyanna naiveté by a wise engineer in the late 90s back when I thought free market capitalism worked for everybody who was willing to go to work and earn. The problem with that idea is that the most successful in society are also the smartest and greediest in society and will not stop until they have taken everything they can for themselves, only being constrained by time and space and force of law.
Hawaii is living example at the moment: the ultra wealthy unscathed by the fires, instead of helping those in need the most, they are taking advantage of them in seeking to buy at bargain basement price what little bit those who've been devastated have left.

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

Laissez-faire Capitalism works great for the ultra wealthy, for everyone else not so much... Remember the saying: Capitalism defeated communism and now it has democracy on the ropes...

The top 10% of households by wealth as a group, held 77% of total household wealth.

The bottom 50% of households by wealth as a group, held only 1% of total household wealth.

Guess who makes the rules.

 

[KC_H]

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

Shareholders as the primary beneficiary of profits is an unfortunate concept, it is associated with the shift (globally) to Laissez-faire Capitalism, oligarchies, and even fascism.

The term stakeholders is a much more accurate description of how the profits of a public company should be utilized. A Stakeholders has a vested interest in a company and can include:

• Shareholders (are only one type of stakeholder, they can easily sell their stock and are no longer a stakeholder)
• Employees
• Customers
• Suppliers
• Communities / Governments (The public services that benefit and protect a company)
• It is a myth that public corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. There have been a number of legal rulings, including by the Supreme Court, brought on by other stakeholders, clearly stating that U.S. companies do not have to maximize shareholder value.

Public companies do not operate in a shareholder value vacuum.

And yes, I do understand investments and capital markets...

 

[smlobx]

Why don’t the UAW workers just quit and find a better job???

Oh wait, they can’t! They are making way more than the average American worker…

 

[Alpine Warthog]

Shareholders as the primary beneficiary of profits is an unfortunate concept, it is associated with the shift (globally) to Laissez-faire Capitalism, oligarchies, and even fascism.

The term stakeholders is a much more accurate description of how the profits of a public company should be utilized. A Stakeholders has a vested interest in a company and can include:

• Shareholders (are only one type of stakeholder, they can easily sell their stock and are no longer a stakeholder)
• Employees
• Customers
• Suppliers
• Communities / Governments (The public services that benefit and protect a company)
• It is a myth that public corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. There have been a number of legal rulings, including by the Supreme Court, brought on by other stakeholders, clearly stating that U.S. companies do not have to maximize shareholder value.

Public companies do not operate in a shareholder value vacuum.

And yes, I do understand investments and capital markets...

It's true that companies don't have to in a vacuum but ignoring the shareholder isn't something they do for a long time. Short term decisions, sure. But that financial earnings report and forecast isn't something they take lightly either.

So exactly what is keeping the regular person from owning stocks and being a shareholder? Our education system? I'd start there. Why don't we teach economics in Highschool? Home Ec? Hell, it's easier than ever to own stocks and you don't even have to own a full share at all. You can buy in increments. The only companies you can't get a share of the profits from are privately owned ones. Two kids in my own household are using Greenlight and slowly accumulating stocks. My Dad (union carpenter, who HATES unions) has been investing here are there for decades. He's only got a HS diploma and training in Carpentry. He's retired now and went to school to be a massage therapist. Point is, these people don't live in a caste society and aren't forced to stay working for the UAW or the big 3..

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Oh wait, they can’t! They are making way more than the average American worker…

And this is a criticism/ testament of what?

 

[Jeeperjamie]

My parents worked in Pillowtex formerly cannon mills for 30+ years and my dad and mom both were heavy in the union, my dad was the local president. They had a deal on the table that would of kept Pillowtex open with a buyer was going to buy them out and employees taking a 75 cent a hour hit in pay. The union turned it down and Pillowtex went Bankrupt and closed it down. A ton of people in Kannapolis,Concord, Salisbury, Rockwell, China Grove and Landis area lost their jobs and homes because of it. I think I would of taken a 75 cent hit in pay to keep my job. Some of those people that's all they knew. Asking for so much from a company is crazy, they are already making plenty. I could see a couple dollars a hour but 40% increase that's outrageous. I'd never support a union, at least not the ones that are around today.

We had a couple employees try to stage a walk out here at work and one guy had his uncle come speak to the people who walked out about forming a union. More than half of our workers walked out. We called a temp service and had about 8 temps come in for less money to fill the void. Ended up keeping 4 of the 8 and filled positions permanently with honestly better employees than we had.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Why don’t the UAW workers just quit and find a better job???

Point is, these people don't live in a caste society and aren't forced to stay working for the UAW or the big 3..

Lol.
All these free market capitalists telling people where they shouldn't work and how they should negotiate for their compensation.
You've been fed a heady tonic and you drank deep, I get it. But you gotta sober up at some point, and face the looming reality.

My eyes can't roll hard enough with anything associated with Marx.

Well you took the bait. I'm sure nobody here doesn't think Marx isn't a POS but he had a salient point: when you boil it down it is the bourgeoisie versus the proletariat and the free-est societies demonstrate just that.

But on your point: yes, completely unregulated capitalism can allow monopolies and the complete abuse of workers.

Not; can: Does. It's a natural law and we've had several cycles and examples of just that.

 

[Alpine Warthog]

Lol.
All these free market capitalists telling people where they shouldn't work and how they should negotiate for their compensation.
You've been fed a heady tonic and you drank deep, I get it. But you gotta sober up at some point, and face the looming reality.

I'm not telling anyone where they should and shouldn't work. But I will say, enough of those people walk and find money elsewhere and companies start upping the offered salary to keep or get people to come in. I had to rethink my position a couple different times and have finally landed at my current position. No, I'm not some single 20 year old with no responsibilities either. I drank deep of reality and refuse to stick around where I'm not going to get paid what I need to survive and thrive, nor will I work where I'm killing myself for some dink that doesn't appreciate what I do. Maybe you're willing to stay put and moan about your conditions and maybe you think these people aren't able to do it either. If there's ANYTHING that the post-Covid work environment taught us is that ANYONE willing to show up to work will get PAID. There's never been a time in history where the system was more tilted in the worker's favor than right now. There's been mention of lots of unfilled jobs. The craziest part of this WHOLE debacle is that the UAW thinks they can squeeze more out of the company that has a huge inventory to sell and has a serious need for people to even show up. Why would any corporation pay more money? (a big chunk of which will go to UNIONS that are fleecing them already)
A reasonable wage? Yes! The demands of the union will only raise the price of these vehicle higher. and they are already selling them at levels that are making us question whether or not they'll keep even making the Gladiator. You want to make sure the Gladiator gets cancelled? This is a good way to make that happen.

Well you took the bait. I'm sure nobody here doesn't think Marx isn't a POS but he had a salient point: when you boil it down it is the bourgeoisie versus the proletariat and the free-est societies demonstrate just that.

Not; can: Does. It's a natural law and we've had several cycles and examples of just that.

Marx most definitely was a POS, a jealous angry one at that. And socialist ideas have only done more to ensure that the proletariat stays at the bottom. The free market is flawed and susceptible to abuse, but it's also the best vehicle (pun intended) for the average man to "pull his bootstraps up" and become the person he/she wants to be. Lots and lots of examples of rags to riches stories out there. The only way you see that in a socialist society is to be Putin and poison, trample, kill your way to the top.

 

[Deleted member 57233]

If there's ANYTHING that the post-Covid work environment taught us is that ANYONE willing to show up to work will get PAID. There's never been a time in history where the system was more tilted in the worker's favor than right now. There's been mention of lots of unfilled jobs. The craziest part of this WHOLE debacle is that the UAW thinks they can squeeze more out of the company that has a huge inventory to sell and has a serious need for people to even show up.

That's why this is the perfect time for the workers to get what they want. Always ask for raises when the job market is in your favor.

Why would any corporation pay more money?

Because they have to. They need the workers. Otherwise they would just replace them if it was more cost effective.

 

[Jeeperjamie]

That's why this is the perfect time for the workers to get what they want. Always ask for raises when the job market is in your favor.




Because they have to. They need the workers. Otherwise they would just replace them if it was more cost effective.

They can't replace them because union jobs are protected by the union. Try that crap at a non union company and see how far it gets you. It got most of them replaced here. What's wrong is some of these older people who have been killing themselves at some of these jobs think they are more valuable than someone who has only been at a company for way less time. They think because they got seniority they are more valuable and I get it. In reality a lot them get lazy and under perform and still think they should be getting more of a raise than guys who are putting out more. I've been where I'm at for 18 years and I'm still getting it done like I did when I was 27 and came to work here. There are guys that have 30 and 35 years who aren't making what I'm making because my boss rewards performance not years of service and that's how it should be. A raise should be based on performance and attendance and safety and if your above in those categories then you should get more of the cut of money than someone who thinks they can do way less because they have so called put the time in. That's how I feel about it. I come in, get it done and I am a top performer where I'm at and it's always been like that. I have no problem and don't feel bad for those that I'm making more than.

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