Survey- For those with misfire issues

[Robicon]

Well I just got back from the dealer with mine for this issue as well and they ignored my request for the compression test. They did a software update and called it a day. Also ignored my request to have the steering TSB done. Was there for 6hrs and all they did was a software update!!!

Well fingers crossed the P0300 error does not return but will not hold my breath. I've heard it has worked for others so time will tell. Either way though I still love this Jeep!

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[mortuar]

Wow, that's going to make things not better - raw fuel into the cylinder, unburned, the small of raw gas I assume at the tail pipe - not good for the CAT either.
Unless I'm mistaken, if you are actually smelling "unburnt fuel" as in the gasoline smell, or even that rich smell of an old car with the choke on too far, it's going to do nothing but more damage.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head with the "rich smell of an old car with the choke on too far". Unburnt fuel washing the cylinder walls is not a good thing.

 

[mortuar]

Well I just got back from the dealer with mine for this issue as well and they ignored my request for the compression test. They did a software update and called it a day. Also ignored my request to have the steering TSB done. Was there for 6hrs and all they did was a software update!!!

Well fingers crossed the P0300 error does not return but will not hold my breath. I've heard it has worked for others so time will tell. Either way though I still love this Jeep!

That's what the dealer I went to did first as well - just a flash. I asked them to do the compression test, but they said they have to follow Jeep's order of repair and can't deviate. So, they have to at least try that first PCM flash and hope it works before they do anything else.

It looks like it takes 3-4 dealership trips before anything meaningful happens, according to this thread.

 

[dgulia]

Well I just got back from the dealer with mine for this issue as well and they ignored my request for the compression test. They did a software update and called it a day. Also ignored my request to have the steering TSB done. Was there for 6hrs and all they did was a software update!!!

Well fingers crossed the P0300 error does not return but will not hold my breath. I've heard it has worked for others so time will tell. Either way though I still love this Jeep!

They did the flash and changed the ESS battery as soon as I pulled out it was back on. Difference was this time CEL came on and then ESS. Tomorrow be 10 days and they said aFter bunch of tests FCA said to remove the valve covers and proceed

 

[Robicon]

That's what the dealer I went to did first as well - just a flash. I asked them to do the compression test, but they said they have to follow Jeep's order of repair and can't deviate. So, they have to at least try that first PCM flash and hope it works before they do anything else.

It looks like it takes 3-4 dealership trips before anything meaningful happens, according to this thread.

I'm at 4 now so guess I am behind the norm.

They did the flash and changed the ESS battery as soon as I pulled out it was back on. Difference was this time CEL came on and then ESS. Tomorrow be 10 days and they said aFter bunch of tests FCA said to remove the valve covers and proceed

Well I at least made it home without it coming back on, so guess I shouldn't complain too much. I'll try and give it a nice long drive tomorrow and see if it comes back on.

 

[dgulia]

I'm at 4 now so guess I am behind the norm.



Well I at least made it home without it coming back on, so guess I shouldn't complain too much. I'll try and give it a nice long drive tomorrow and see if it comes back on.

I hope your truck is fixed and you don’t have to go through this again

 

[mortuar]

The really, really unfortunate thing here is Jeep and @JeepCares know what is going on. They know all of our Gladiators experiencing the same exact symptoms (and a bunch of Wranglers on the Wrangler forums experiencing these same symptoms) are related to the same exact issue, and instead of doing right by the customer, we have to jump through hoops to get to a proper end result.

We are all wasting countless hours and days waiting for this to be made right. They could turn this entire situation into a positive by doing the right thing the first time, but they're not doing it. We're having to drop our vehicles off over and over to be told it's fixed when it's not when they *know* what needs to be done already. They are killing the brand love for these vehicles one once loyal customer at a time. It's a major bummer.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The really, really unfortunate thing here is Jeep and @JeepCares know what is going on. They know all of our Gladiators experiencing the same exact symptoms (and a bunch of Wranglers on the Wrangler forums experiencing these same symptoms) are related to the same exact issue, and instead of doing right by the customer, we have to jump through hoops to get to a proper end result.

We are all wasting countless hours and days waiting for this to be made right. They could turn this entire situation into a positive by doing the right thing the first time, but they're not doing it. We're having to drop our vehicles off over and over to be told it's fixed when it's not when they *know* what needs to be done already. They are killing the brand love for these vehicles one once loyal customer at a time. It's a major bummer.

Sorry, that's over-simplifying it.
Some have indeed been resolved with the PCM update - and as a mechanic myself - it makes total sense that this could happen.
I've said several times you can have the same symptoms for multiple causes. Like the flu - is it the flu, and if so, which version?
You can have engine misses for many reasons, INCLUDING the PCM. IT controls everything about your engine - valve timing, intake valve lift, ignition timing, A/F ratio, combustion temperatures via cooled EGR and more I won't try to list.
It makes total and perfect sense, again, as a mechanic both factory and college trained, to try the most simple and cheapest change first. That's because FCA has found that the PCM software has indeed resolved issues just like this.
It gets really complex at times trying to troubleshoot some of these things.
It's also possible that a miss is caused by a mechanical issue - sticking VVL solenoids, faulty phasers, sticking injectors, or other reasons.
And then you get into something we've fought for decades and longer just in general - what started simple may have gotten more complex because the simple illness caused further damage.
It could be that the initial problem was PCM - and running it with a miss - depending on the cause, caused further damage. That means that if caught quickly the PCM update may have resolved it, but now it's got physical damage, mechanical issues, so the PCM update won't handle it.
There are at least three things complicating this -
1. The issue is the PCM causing a misfire, and codes - get it caught, update the PCM, resolved
2. Perhaps the issue truly is physical, mechanical, and there's are parts that need to be replaced.
2. A. - but because the SYMPTOMS are exactly the same - they need to try the PCM fix first instead if instantly tearing down an engine only to find NO damage and the PCM fix would have resolved it.
3. The PCM was the issue and now there's physical damage to the cylinder walls because the extra fuel, the unburned fuel, caused damage to the engine.
3. A. They tried the PCM fix as ordered - didn't work, NOW run diagnostics on the engine's physical condition - if a compression test comes out funky, run a LEAK-DOWN test to find out why.
And/or, remove valve covers and observe valve timing and lift. Take a dial indicator and check for lift - use a degree wheel and dial indicator and check for valve timing.

I've been a professional troubleshooter for, well, since I was 14 (and have the trophies and news articles to support it) and I believe that in most cases, not all, but many if not most, they are following proper processes.
FCA has outlined what must be done for the dealer to be reimbursed for warranty work.
Due to the complexity of modern engines and electronics, it all takes time. And at over $100/hour in many cases.............. they aren't going to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

If I were the service manager for a Jeep shop (a job I turned down years ago) I'd do this -
Follow FCA's guidelines -
PCM update if the codes stored indicated a match
If that resolved the issue - great
if not, if customer returns -
Check physical engine conditions - and if possible use a sniffer other than the O2 sensor the PCM is using, get a sniff ahead of the cat - but that's just ME)
Compression check if misfire codes are still indicated.
LEAK-DOWN check if compression test fails.
Depending on the results of the above - check valve lift and timing -this would take a couple of hours but would rule in or out VVT or VVL issues.

In any case, because THESE HAVE INDEED BEEN CURED with the PCM fix - there's no way any dealer will simply tear into an engine nor would or should FCA authorize it as a first resort.

 

[MauiBum]

If the bit about this being a manufacturing defect caused during the robotic cylinder boring process then you would think FCA would know:

• Which milling machine(s) had the issue
• How long the issue was present
• Which engine serial numbers rolled off the line with the defect

Why so long to address the issue and notify the affected owners? Or, at the very least, acknowledge the problem and make it right when an affected vehicle is brought in with the defect. If you engine serial number or VIN is not listed as possibly defective then flash the PCM and see what happens. IT runs your engine and it also runs all this equipment and the entire manufacturing process. They have the data, perhaps they should use it.

For mine they did not even bother to flash the PCM or clear the CEL, they just said FCA is aware and they are awaiting a fix. I'm betting 2nd visit is a flash and a prayer.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If the bit about this being a manufacturing defect caused during the robotic cylinder boring process then you would think FCA would know:

• Which milling machine(s) had the issue
• How long the issue was present
• Which engine serial numbers rolled off the line with the defect

Do we KNOW that was the issue, or is this an anonymous tip? Did this come from an FCA employee in MEXICO? Someone who KNEW or did a dealer simply throw this out and now like everything else on the mis-information stupidhighway, it's become fact because it was repeated 10 times?

I still haven't seen this verified by jeepcares or a Jeep engineer or employee who could actually know of this - and not all Jeep employees would or should know of this. Because you work for Jeep, maybe even in the Ohio JT assembly plant, doesn't mean you know all things that go on in the engine plant in Mexico.

I am still waiting for someone who can verify, and prove that's what the issue was.
And if it was an issue - that's VERY SPECIFIC damage - and with a limited number. I know how CNC machines work - and how even automated equipment does get checked, tool bits changed and as my father was a head inspector in a factory - these things don't just roll out without humans looking at them. At some point a human is involved. If there was an issue, there's no way it went on for months and months - no tool bit would last that long, no process would go unchecked for that long.

In other words - "show me the damage and how it happened" and only a verified person in the know will do. Not the word from a dealer. Heck, most of them barely get the 5 quarts of oil correct.

 

[speedracer0481]

I'm at 4 now so guess I am behind the norm.



Well I at least made it home without it coming back on, so guess I shouldn't complain too much. I'll try and give it a nice long drive tomorrow and see if it comes back on.

Did you ever submit your build information? I don't see it, but certainly could have overlooked it.

 

[mortuar]

Sorry, that's over-simplifying it.
Some have indeed been resolved with the PCM update - and as a mechanic myself - it makes total sense that this could happen.
I've said several times you can have the same symptoms for multiple causes. Like the flu - is it the flu, and if so, which version?
You can have engine misses for many reasons, INCLUDING the PCM. IT controls everything about your engine - valve timing, intake valve lift, ignition timing, A/F ratio, combustion temperatures via cooled EGR and more I won't try to list.
It makes total and perfect sense, again, as a mechanic both factory and college trained, to try the most simple and cheapest change first. That's because FCA has found that the PCM software has indeed resolved issues just like this.
It gets really complex at times trying to troubleshoot some of these things.
It's also possible that a miss is caused by a mechanical issue - sticking VVL solenoids, faulty phasers, sticking injectors, or other reasons.
And then you get into something we've fought for decades and longer just in general - what started simple may have gotten more complex because the simple illness caused further damage.
It could be that the initial problem was PCM - and running it with a miss - depending on the cause, caused further damage. That means that if caught quickly the PCM update may have resolved it, but now it's got physical damage, mechanical issues, so the PCM update won't handle it.
There are at least three things complicating this -
1. The issue is the PCM causing a misfire, and codes - get it caught, update the PCM, resolved
2. Perhaps the issue truly is physical, mechanical, and there's are parts that need to be replaced.
2. A. - but because the SYMPTOMS are exactly the same - they need to try the PCM fix first instead if instantly tearing down an engine only to find NO damage and the PCM fix would have resolved it.
3. The PCM was the issue and now there's physical damage to the cylinder walls because the extra fuel, the unburned fuel, caused damage to the engine.
3. A. They tried the PCM fix as ordered - didn't work, NOW run diagnostics on the engine's physical condition - if a compression test comes out funky, run a LEAK-DOWN test to find out why.
And/or, remove valve covers and observe valve timing and lift. Take a dial indicator and check for lift - use a degree wheel and dial indicator and check for valve timing.

I've been a professional troubleshooter for, well, since I was 14 (and have the trophies and news articles to support it) and I believe that in most cases, not all, but many if not most, they are following proper processes.
FCA has outlined what must be done for the dealer to be reimbursed for warranty work.
Due to the complexity of modern engines and electronics, it all takes time. And at over $100/hour in many cases.............. they aren't going to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

If I were the service manager for a Jeep shop (a job I turned down years ago) I'd do this -
Follow FCA's guidelines -
PCM update if the codes stored indicated a match
If that resolved the issue - great
if not, if customer returns -
Check physical engine conditions - and if possible use a sniffer other than the O2 sensor the PCM is using, get a sniff ahead of the cat - but that's just ME)
Compression check if misfire codes are still indicated.
LEAK-DOWN check if compression test fails.
Depending on the results of the above - check valve lift and timing -this would take a couple of hours but would rule in or out VVT or VVL issues.

In any case, because THESE HAVE INDEED BEEN CURED with the PCM fix - there's no way any dealer will simply tear into an engine nor would or should FCA authorize it as a first resort.

Sorry, but you don't have to tear an engine down to do a compression check. Maybe they save themselves a tiny bit of labor, but it seems to me that a flash of the PCM makes sense - but why not also check something that is pretty blatantly obvious? How would a flash of the PCM fix what many are experiencing here with the compression being off from one bank of cylinders to another?

I get that this is the warranty process, but there are other things that could be checked without tearing an engine apart. I wasn't saying they should rip out every engine with a check engine light for P0300 after ESS lights - but there are other things they could check. Instead, let's flash my PCM, not even drive it around to make sure it doesn't fire again (the mileage in and out on my work order is identical - they didn't even drive it a mile), and have the customer who lives ~45 minutes away one way drive it back home and back up here possibly causing even more damage.

I understand they have to follow the order of procedure, but it would make more sense to do as much checking as possible to rule out physical engine issues - things that won't require a tear down of the engine. Instead, I've got more miles on a very clearly misfiring engine and now have a very prominent raw fuel smell. No good.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Sorry, but you don't have to tear an engine down to do a compression check. Maybe they save themselves a tiny bit of labor, but it seems to me that a flash of the PCM makes sense - but why not also check something that is pretty blatantly obvious? How would a flash of the PCM fix what many are experiencing here with the compression being off from one bank of cylinders to another?

I get that this is the warranty process, but there are other things that could be checked without tearing an engine apart. I wasn't saying they should rip out every engine with a check engine light for P0300 after ESS lights - but there are other things they could check. Instead, let's flash my PCM, not even drive it around to make sure it doesn't fire again (the mileage in and out on my work order is identical - they didn't even drive it a mile), and have the customer who lives ~45 minutes away one way drive it back home and back up here possibly causing even more damage.

I understand they have to follow the order of procedure, but it would make more sense to do as much checking as possible to rule out physical engine issues - things that won't require a tear down of the engine. Instead, I've got more miles on a very clearly misfiring engine and now have a very prominent raw fuel smell. No good.

I didn't say they did - if you read into it you saw I said run the check, depending on outcome, run the leak-down test. And again, depending on outcome, taking off at least the valve covers may be necessary.
A compression test takes time - and they won't get reimbursed for it. That's not been the majority of the issues anyway. If it had been, then it would be part of the process. It's not - so obviously FCA has discovered in most cases, the issue was PCM.
Compression has only come up with some of them. Are you going to check it when maybe only 25% have a compression issue?
And if I am correct - catching that PCM problem results in not having further damage.

I've been a professional for a very long time - the very best use very specific troubleshooting methods and processes. They don't check compression right away for a miss, especially when FCA says update the PCM and go from there.
To check compression on first visit assume that the majority are cylinder issues - which in my observations, hasn't bee shown yet. Yes, in this forum a few have said there was cylinder wall issues, but others have said - lifters, phasers, even cam issues. Compression tests are old-school these days, Leak-down is superior. Even on old-school carbureted engines. When we see people in my forum talk of compression checks, the first thing the pros say is - but did you do a LEAK-DOWN test?
So you have low compression - does that mean you start taking heads off?
NO.........
You find WHERE it's going, or why it's low. Cam, lifters, phasers, etc. can cause low compression.
In fact, the engineering behind the whole 3.6 thing with VVL is to REDUCE compression under low load. So if you have VVL malfunctioning, you have LOWER compression in those cylinders.
Congratulations, you pulled heads off due to low compression and the cylinder walls have nothing to do with it.
You could instead run a leak-down test and find the reason and maybe save an engine tear-down.
I've done more engine related troubleshooting and built more engines than almost any dealership shop "mechanic".

You said a compression check would be or is "blatantly obvious" - based on? What? Raw fuel smell? A miss? Compression is typically the LAST cause when troubleshooting. And I bet it's only because of some speaking of cylinder wall damage that it even comes up.
A stuck injector can cause a raw fuel smell - I have a new injector sticking in my 4.0. (it was fine until I replaced them at 133,000 miles then one of the new ones started causing trouble)

 

[mortuar]

Quick update - they've run a compression test and are now performing a leak down test. I asked them for the compression numbers, and they said they didn't have them readily available to give to me. Waiting for a call back before close today, hopefully.

Again, would have been nice to have had the compression test the first day I brought it in when a slew of these are having the *same exact symptoms* and a compression test would show whether or not something is amiss further than the PCM. It would have saved me several hours driving and waiting.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Quick update - they've run a compression test and are now performing a leak down test. I asked them for the compression numbers, and they said they didn't have them readily available to give to me.

Seriously, You mean they couldn't ask the tech even for what he remembered? That's almost laughable. When I do such work it sticks in my mind if there's a variation over 10% or not - and at least which cylinders had the lowest even if I can't recall if it was 145 or 147.
So they do a test and don't log it or write it down.

Just my gut, my opinion, my feeling, but your accounting of them doesn't give me great confidence............

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