The good and the bad of a roots supercharger.

[MemphisMississipp]

If you all are wondering why I limited my engine to 2800 rpm.

Also you can see the difference between the older rockers and the new ones

My guess is the high lift shim on my number one rocker has come loose or the lock pin spring is broke.

https://www.sae.org/news/2015/08/2016-pentastar-v6-adds-new-vvt-cooled-egr

Mercy that’s a lot of difference

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[ShadowsPapa]

Interesting:

https://www.classaction.org/news/he...ver-alleged-3.6l-pentastar-v6-engine-problems

Wrangler mentioned but not JT.

I've mentioned that before, here, and in other places. Their list makes little sense. The JT has the same engine. And they also cover 2015 and 2014 as I recall - no VVL in those. That was introduced in the 2016 model year.
Different cams, different rockers, different lash adjusters (lifters) and they are all lumped together in that suit.

Part of the issue appears to be the lack of oil pressure in the rocker which holds it in low lift mode.
No oil, the pin moves back and locks the rocker in high lift mode, running on the center cam profile at all RPM. That means no roller action and a bit more noise as there's some lash in that rocker.

 

[1BadCtdBrute]

That’s something I wanted to mention as well. Only two of the incorrect lash adjusters could be partially collapsed by hand. They did spring back, but the other 4 were solid and wouldn’t budge. In pulling the Bank 2 lash adjusters, which were correct, there were also two that had any slack and the rest were solid. The exhaust lash adjusters were all clipped on to the rockers (all 12 both sides) and all of them had pressure until I squeezed and let go a few times, then they bled down. Of course the new parts were all bled down and had movement. Also, the screen on the rear VVL solenoid was full of junk, looked like tiny bits of the grey RTV used on the timing chain cover. Front VVL solenoid Wes clean and clear. Tested both with 12 volts and they were actuating the plunger as designed.

 

[1BadCtdBrute]

@DAVECS1 , I kept all solenoids/sensors/reluctor rings separated from each other and away from any magnetic fields. The phasers both sat under the chain and were relatively un-disturbed as I slid them off the cams far enough to remove the cams/rockers/lash adjusters. I did try the phaser cleaning process before tearing into Bank 1, and after; same exact result. When the test starts for intake phaser 1 (bank 1) the engine pulls down like the engine is super lean/rich and just about dies. The phaser and oil control solenoid are what’s being changed in that isolated test/cleaning, so I’m truly hoping it’s the phaser that is the issue. I was going to try swapping the intake/exhaust oil control solenoids but they are different. The bank 2 intake oil control solenoid would be easily swapped if there wasn’t a roots blower in the way.

 

[1BadCtdBrute]

I have a feeling those of us with Magnuson supercharged trucks would be excluded from the class action suits anyways

I've mentioned that before, here, and in other places. Their list makes little sense. The JT has the same engine. And they also cover 2015 and 2014 as I recall - no VVL in those. That was introduced in the 2016 model year.
Different cams, different rockers, different lash adjusters (lifters) and they are all lumped together in that suit.

Part of the issue appears to be the lack of oil pressure in the rocker which holds it in low lift mode.
No oil, the pin moves back and locks the rocker in high lift mode, running on the center cam profile at all RPM. That means no roller action and a bit more noise as there's some lash in that rocker.

 

[DAVECS1]

@DAVECS1 , I kept all solenoids/sensors/reluctor rings separated from each other and away from any magnetic fields. The phasers both sat under the chain and were relatively un-disturbed as I slid them off the cams far enough to remove the cams/rockers/lash adjusters. I did try the phaser cleaning process before tearing into Bank 1, and after; same exact result. When the test starts for intake phaser 1 (bank 1) the engine pulls down like the engine is super lean/rich and just about dies. The phaser and oil control solenoid are what’s being changed in that isolated test/cleaning, so I’m truly hoping it’s the phaser that is the issue. I was going to try swapping the intake/exhaust oil control solenoids but they are different. The bank 2 intake oil control solenoid would be easily swapped if there wasn’t a roots blower in the way.

I think your on the right track. My guess is the phaser collected metal and is not moving well. Should be a relatively straight forward swap. Not that I like throwing parts at stuff, but may wanna swap the actuator first as it is easy to get to. Not sure if you could access the phaser through that hole or not.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have a feeling those of us with Magnuson supercharged trucks would be excluded from the class action suits anyways

That may be true, but it's not right, IMO. That SC has zip to do with valve operation. If the engine is operating correctly, the SC should aid in keeping engine RPM down low, less time and less frequency hitting the higher RPMs to get power out of it, so less time in the high lift mode.
But since this is about failure of the "systems" to keep the rockers in the low lift mode to begin with, it's totally illogical as I see it to leave anyone out unless they race these and run them at constant high RPM.
Dave can correct me - and I'd welcome it if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the point of the SC is to keep the power and torque where it's more useful and if that's the case, I bet my foot would be into the throttle less, I'd be in the lower RPM ranges more often while towing or needing to make a hill. Better "Driveability" as it were.
I'm no SC expert like he is.......... but this seems pretty basic.
Jeep has a problem keeping the rockers in low lift mode where they run on rollers (wimpy ones, but rollers non-the-less) When they slip into high lift mode, you are now like a solid lifter on a higher lift profile - rubbing, not rolling, and more pressure because you have collapsed the valve spring more for the higher lift. It's operating like a flat tappet cam, but not even that good because at least with flat tappet cams, you have the lifters actually turning, constantly changing contact areas, not rubbing the exact same spot on the bottom of the lifter.

Anyway, You are likely correct, but it's not right to leave out SC equipped engines because that super charger has zero to do with valve operation, and in my thinking, an SC could actually make the valve train last longer if it worked correctly because you'd be in high lift mode less often.

 

[DAVECS1]

That may be true, but it's not right, IMO. That SC has zip to do with valve operation. If the engine is operating correctly, the SC should aid in keeping engine RPM down low, less time and less frequency hitting the higher RPMs to get power out of it, so less time in the high lift mode.
But since this is about failure of the "systems" to keep the rockers in the low lift mode to begin with, it's totally illogical as I see it to leave anyone out unless they race these and run them at constant high RPM.
Dave can correct me - and I'd welcome it if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the point of the SC is to keep the power and torque where it's more useful and if that's the case, I bet my foot would be into the throttle less, I'd be in the lower RPM ranges more often while towing or needing to make a hill. Better "Driveability" as it were.
I'm no SC expert like he is.......... but this seems pretty basic.
Jeep has a problem keeping the rockers in low lift mode where they run on rollers (wimpy ones, but rollers non-the-less) When they slip into high lift mode, you are now like a solid lifter on a higher lift profile - rubbing, not rolling, and more pressure because you have collapsed the valve spring more for the higher lift. It's operating like a flat tappet cam, but not even that good because at least with flat tappet cams, you have the lifters actually turning, constantly changing contact areas, not rubbing the exact same spot on the bottom of the lifter.

Anyway, You are likely correct, but it's not right to leave out SC equipped engines because that super charger has zero to do with valve operation, and in my thinking, an SC could actually make the valve train last longer if it worked correctly because you'd be in high lift mode less often.

I thing your on point Papa. The only argument you could counter with, is with the SC installed you are spending more time at low lift and it may prolong any self correction that may happen with higher duty cycle, or the wear is faster as the stuck rocker is riding the cam at low lift, longer.

My opinion is the mechanical forces are way higher than any atmospheric forces being exerted on the valves opening. If it was a diesel maybe, but even then. In rhe lab I have never seen mechanical forces exerted by cylinder pressure come close to any of the valvtrain mechanism functional specs.

 

[1BadCtdBrute]

I have my fingers crossed that the phaser is the issue. The code P000A is supposed to be a phaser related code as the actuator has its own fault code P0010 I believe. Waiting on parts. I will update of course when I get the phaser replaced.

 

[shanesibley]

So far,
After I replaced all the intake lifters, rockers, and B1 Cam, I replace the computer with one from HP so I could have COSpeed look at the tuning. Then, and only then, did the Jeep start throwing a relavant code. P0017 (Cam Position Sensor). I figured 2 of 3 things would be easy to replace. I replaced the sensor and the VVL solenoid and the low RPM knock has gotten BETTER. It still does it, but seems to go away after a bit. The 3rd thing that I think it could be, but I havent swapped yet, is the phaser. I cant seem to find a new one anywhere. However, I plan to look around to see if I can find someone that can run a "phaser clean" on the current ones and see if that helps. I think that it is fair to say, at this point, the phaser is my last problem, which couldve been caused by a faulty VVL solenoid in the first place. Will update as I find more. If you think you have better info than what I have, please, lay it on me. I am at 31K miles and have been chasing this issue since the day I parked it in my driveway. The only reason it doesnt have a Hemi at this point, is the fact that I'm in England.

 

[DAVECS1]

So far,
After I replaced all the intake lifters, rockers, and B1 Cam, I replace the computer with one from HP so I could have COSpeed look at the tuning. Then, and only then, did the Jeep start throwing a relavant code. P0017 (Cam Position Sensor). I figured 2 of 3 things would be easy to replace. I replaced the sensor and the VVL solenoid and the low RPM knock has gotten BETTER. It still does it, but seems to go away after a bit. The 3rd thing that I think it could be, but I havent swapped yet, is the phaser. I cant seem to find a new one anywhere. However, I plan to look around to see if I can find someone that can run a "phaser clean" on the current ones and see if that helps. I think that it is fair to say, at this point, the phaser is my last problem, which couldve been caused by a faulty VVL solenoid in the first place. Will update as I find more. If you think you have better info than what I have, please, lay it on me. I am at 31K miles and have been chasing this issue since the day I parked it in my driveway. The only reason it doesnt have a Hemi at this point, is the fact that I'm in England.

If your fighting low RPM knock, it most likely needs to do a cam and crank sync. This is available in the HP scanner software. Sometimes you have to request it though, as it is not activated for all operating systems initially

 

[SteveInOrlando]

So far,
After I replaced all the intake lifters, rockers, and B1 Cam, I replace the computer with one from HP so I could have COSpeed look at the tuning. Then, and only then, did the Jeep start throwing a relavant code. P0017 (Cam Position Sensor). I figured 2 of 3 things would be easy to replace. I replaced the sensor and the VVL solenoid and the low RPM knock has gotten BETTER. It still does it, but seems to go away after a bit. The 3rd thing that I think it could be, but I havent swapped yet, is the phaser. I cant seem to find a new one anywhere. However, I plan to look around to see if I can find someone that can run a "phaser clean" on the current ones and see if that helps. I think that it is fair to say, at this point, the phaser is my last problem, which couldve been caused by a faulty VVL solenoid in the first place. Will update as I find more. If you think you have better info than what I have, please, lay it on me. I am at 31K miles and have been chasing this issue since the day I parked it in my driveway. The only reason it doesnt have a Hemi at this point, is the fact that I'm in England.

You need to calibrate your Cam Phazers. If it doesn't appear as an option for your vehicle, then you need to have HP Tuners unlock it for your truck.

This is the same exact problem I had with my truck with the HP Tuners ECM. It will periodically throw P0017 and P0018 codes. If you pull scans while driving you will find some really crazy behaviors with your cams sometimes.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...0-kit-available-now.25396/page-53#post-845962

 

[poole34]

You need to calibrate your Cam Phazers. If it doesn't appear as an option for your vehicle, then you need to have HP Tuners unlock it for your truck.

This is the same exact problem I had with my truck with the HP Tuners ECM. It will periodically throw P0017 and P0018 codes. If you pull scans while driving you will find some really crazy behaviors with your cams sometimes.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...0-kit-available-now.25396/page-53#post-845962

You could try alfaobd, I used it before HP tuners added the cam sync function to my tune. I had ordered an ECM from them but had no cam readings until I did the sync.

 

[shanesibley]

If your fighting low RPM knock, it most likely needs to do a cam and crank sync. This is available in the HP scanner software. Sometimes you have to request it though, as it is not activated for all operating systems initially

I just need to call HP? I am running Beta right now and I looked for the resync and couldnt find it.

 

[shanesibley]

You need to calibrate your Cam Phazers. If it doesn't appear as an option for your vehicle, then you need to have HP Tuners unlock it for your truck.

This is the same exact problem I had with my truck with the HP Tuners ECM. It will periodically throw P0017 and P0018 codes. If you pull scans while driving you will find some really crazy behaviors with your cams sometimes.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...0-kit-available-now.25396/page-53#post-845962

Thank you for this information. I have been looking for ways to get this done. I knew there had to be a way for HP to do it, but I couldnt find information on it and I havent had time to HP yet. I need to make that time! Thank you, again.

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