Would you still do the Genesis Dual Battery?

[chorky]

Thank you for this!

If you had to do it all over again with your current set-up, would you go to a single battery with the lithium battery in the bed?

Be careful with lithium. Lithium and cold does not play nice. It takes a decent amount of work to make lithium functional in temps below freezing. Not worth it IMO. It would be far better to just get a power pack than a full lithium setup which will cost more than the genesis and a third battery.

Excuse the potential noob question but how would one track if you're getting close to that 70% threshold? Is that what the G screen is for?

The G-screen is super cool. Its like a fancy red-arc readout thing but smaller and way cheaper. It will tell you the voltage of each battery independently. the display is green when the combiner is automatically closed, yellow when the combiner is open (separating the batteries) and red if one of the batteries is below 12v. It also lets you force the battery combiner to close or open depending on if you want the batteries to be connected or not. So for example for me that is good because I have a third battery in the bed but is only connected via 4ga. So if I had a winch pull to do I would override the g-screen and force the solenoid to open, disconnecting the batteries, so that the winch isnt trying to pull 400 amps through that 22’ of 4ga wire. As for the charge percentage, that can be figured based on voltage. I would have to go look at my notes but if memory serves me correctly 12.2v is 70% discharged.

So lets put battery discussion into terms of practical use. Sunce I was just out on a 8 day trip last week and leaving tomorrow for a 5 day trip. On that 8 day trip I had 2 days where I drove maybe a couple hours. So batteries were already a little below 100%. Maybe like 90% or something. Referring to the chart on my build thread, with the engle fridge running, utilizing some rock lights in the bed as cargo lights, plus the water pump and water heater and charging my watch, i went 2 full days and did not even get below 12.7v. now following this I plugged in a 100w zam solar panel to their 30a charge controller and was charging a solid 4-6 amps Continuously with sun exposure. My setup has a 64ah starting battery and 175ah of auxiliary battery for ’house’ items. a person could build their own version of this without the genesis system (or maybe just the g-screen and the solenoid, for cheaper if they wanted to keep their factory battery and just add a single 150ah battery in the bed And it would be cheaper than getting the full genesis kit.

IMO based on what I have experienced this past week, unless a person needs 500ah of battery to live and work remote, then until lithium plays nice with the cold its just not worth the cost. But. My opinion seems to be unpopular. I would rather have a bluetti power pack than $4K worth of lithium That wont function below freezing very well.

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[Mister Lamb]

For the same price (or cheaper) I'd just opt for this Solar panel to keep everything fully charged.

 

[Rummie]

If you consider a Bluetti or similar be sure to look into charging rates. They don't tend to charge nearly as quickly as a dcdc charger going to a stand alone battery.

Also look into lithium batteries that can self heat. More $$ but looks like they can solve the cold weather problem in my limited research.

 

[Rummie]

For the same price (or cheaper) I'd just opt for this Solar panel to keep everything fully charged.

Love their products. The one I put on my hood is only 35 watts though. It helps but not as much as the ones for other models.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Be careful with lithium. Lithium and cold does not play nice. It takes a decent amount of work to make lithium functional in temps below freezing. Not worth it IMO. It would be far better to just get a power pack than a full lithium setup which will cost more than the genesis and a third battery.

Not only cold but they do not like hot, either. That's what the batteries in something like a 4xe are heated AND cooled. And that last 20% of charge is harder to get in. It takes a whole lot more to get over 80% on them. Even the batteries in my new laptop have special charging software controls to slow charge the last 20% overnight while it's not running to prolong life and prevent over-heating.
I'm also one not to mix and match battery types in anything like these Jeeps. I know some have their own "electronics" but it's still not like that battery being alone in a system.

 

[chorky]

If you consider a Bluetti or similar be sure to look into charging rates. They don't tend to charge nearly as quickly as a dcdc charger going to a stand alone battery.

Also look into lithium batteries that can self heat. More $$ but looks like they can solve the cold weather problem in my limited research.

I did some hard looking into that option a few months ago when realizing I needed the third battery in the bed. and its cool but it still needs more. At least for me here in Montana. Winters drop well into the -20’s and self heated batteries only really help to about freezing. Below that they need a heated and insulated box to be inside. But then you have the problem of overheating in the summer. So its just not as plug and play as most people think. That bit of info came directly from manufacturers and from a few folks that do professional camper van builds

Not only cold but they do not like hot, either. That's what the batteries in something like a 4xe are heated AND cooled. And that last 20% of charge is harder to get in. It takes a whole lot more to get over 80% on them. Even the batteries in my new laptop have special charging software controls to slow charge the last 20% overnight while it's not running to prolong life and prevent over-heating.
I'm also one not to mix and match battery types in anything like these Jeeps. I know some have their own "electronics" but it's still not like that battery being alone in a system.

dang I didnt know they were cooled also thats crazy. But pretty cool.

adding a lithium battery, done correctly, to a jeep does not combine it with the existing system. Any way you slide it the lithium battery has to be its own battery system. The only connection would be via a dc/dc charge controller. I suppose you could combine them momentarily in an emergency situation but much longer than a few minutes, from my research anyway, risks bad things happening.

i am sure tech will get better some day and lithium will be more stable but until then I will just stick with the tride and true AGM and suffer the weight consequence. After all that genesis system, or rather the general design idea, has been in the ‘overlanding’ world since the 70’s maybe even older (in terms of using a solenoid to disconnect two batteries so one does not discharge and recombins them once the engine is running to provide a charge.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

adding a lithium battery, done correctly, to a jeep does not combine it with the existing system. Any way you slide it the lithium battery has to be its own battery system. The only connection would be via a dc/dc charge controller.

Yeah, I was referring to those who want to drop them directly in as a replacement for one of the batteries, or wired directly in without such a charger between the batteries.
Your method is the only way to do it right.

 

[Rummie]

OP should definitely do his own research on lithium vs agm. There are a lot of reasons that the vast majority of overlanders choose lithium for a second battery system.

They are not for use under the hood due to engine heat as most know. They are not tied into the main electrical system either. In common usage they are part of a stand alone system that is in the cab or the bed.

Among other reasons that people might choose lithium vs agm are that they have twice the usable power with half the weight. They also work in the temp ranges that will meet most people's needs. As an example, the brand I use, Battle Born, can operate from -4f to 135f with the heated version. For most people that will cover the camping situations they are in. I don't camp in weather below -4 and I don't use the battery when the temps are that low. My battery is not in temps above 135f either.

It all depends on how the OP will use the system. If you're ice fishing in Alaska then maybe lithium isn't the best option for you. If you camp in the middle of winter in a cold climate then stick with agm. Otherwise consider lithium. Many would consider the more advanced lithium technology as tried and true at this point as well.

 

[chorky]

I’m currently on the fence regarding the Genesis dual battery set up or just disconnecting the aux battery and going with a bigger single battery (group 94r).

For those that went dual battery, if you had to do it all over again, would you do still do it? Anyone revert to a single battery?

For those that pulled the aux battery, did you eventually upgrade to the dual battery? Or was the single battery enough for you?

I understand and well aware the dual battery set up is based on needs. What I’m looking for are things I didn’t thought of (for example, potentially needing a battery while away from comfort of home surroundings) and long term usage reviews or any other negatives.

Thanks!!

So back to your initial question. Here is what I suggest.

First - and a CRITICAL step to take - do an energy audit. Sit down over the weekend and list alllll the things you think you will want to have. Then add a safety buffer of 15% - so maybe add, idk, an additional item you kinda might want but dont know if you really will run off of batteries when camped.

After the first, but before the second - get the specifications of the items you want to run. This means you need to pre plan what to get. For me I knew I wanted a engle fridge. Figure all of this out BEFORE doing the math. Different fridges and components have wildly different power consumption. And don't go off of someone who just says "well I got 4 days out of my iceco..." You don't know their circumstances. I got the actual benchmark specifications which list how many amps used, at what duty cycle, at what coolness temperature setting, with what outside ambient temperature. This may sound excessive to some, but this is how I built a system that will last me more than my initial desires - ie. I am not risking running out of battery and spoiling all my food.

Second - do the math. Figure out how many amp hours in a 24 hour period you think you will require given those components. Then extrapolate that out to how many days you want to be camped.

Second - and a half - if you want to, you can factor in solar recharging. For me I did not, instead I told myself I wanted to have the capacity for 2 days without driving, without recharging, without solar. Just to know that I can do that. You never know if clouds will cover the sun.

Third - figure out with this how much battery you actually need. Maybe it's 200ah, maybe it's 75ah. Only way to know is by doing the math and factoring a safety buffer. Adding solar is just a side benefit - I would not rely on it 100%


All that being said - depending on the math, I would seriously consider buying the 'build your own' version of the genesis and include the G screen. Use the isolator on the main battery and have a second 150ah battery like this (https://fullriverbattery.com/batteries/part-dc150-12/) in the bed. and run your house items off of that. I have way more battery than I need - and considering I have solar now also (have not done a writeup on it yet) then I have plenty of power for days and days. I found out early on that I screwed up and did not do the math correctly which made me think I was going to be ok with the 64ah aux battery in the genesis kit - it was not enough. Had I known that before, I probably would have just pulled fuse 42, and put a large AGM in the bed and used that.

 

[Rummie]

I spoke with the electrical engineers for full river and they claim 500 full cycles if drawing down to 70% DOD.

I wish that they were accurate. I just had both of mine replaced under warranty after 18 months. Nowhere near 500 cycles unfortunately. Not sure if that is the norm or an unusual case. Neither was drawn down below 50% on any occasion I believe. At least they were replaced without any problems. Gotta give them credit for that.

 

[tysongladiator]

Do you have a write up on this set-up?

No, I don't. I didn't do a write up because I wouldn't recommend anyone do what I did. I actually cut open the inside bed wall and installed a battery box that I made so that the battery sits inside the wall a little bit. In these gladiators, we're already struggling for space. So, I tried to save as much as I can. And then running wires along the frame through all of that. It takes a little bravery to cut that bed. So, I didn't want to advise my method knowing that you can't change anything back.

 

[darkhorse13]

Not the Genesis System but I love mine. It's only a group 25 aux battery but with the hood solar it does everything I need from my accessories. Honestly it 99% powers my ARB 63QT fridge and then at night it powers the 12v & USB in the RTT. The hood solar (or any solar really) is crucial to the dual battery system if you're sitting in one spot for a few days.

Anyway, my answer is yes to an "underhood dual battery system + solar" for light to medium duty needs. If I was wanting to run an invertor or more charging components like cameras/laptops/drones/etc then a REDARC BCDC1225 with a lithium battery protected from the elements in the bed would be better... still solar though! I'll never NOT run solar to some extent.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...5w-lensun-hood-solar-panel.46542/#post-757531

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No, I don't. I didn't do a write up because I wouldn't recommend anyone do what I did. I actually cut open the inside bed wall and installed a battery box that I made so that the battery sits inside the wall a little bit. In these gladiators, we're already struggling for space. So, I tried to save as much as I can. And then running wires along the frame through all of that. It takes a little bravery to cut that bed. So, I didn't want to advise my method knowing that you can't change anything back.

I THINK that is was Mr._Bill that did a battery holder in the rear on the outside of the right inner bed wall. He's got pics of it around somewhere.
That's what I'd do eventually so I have a battery at/near the back to run the winch on my trailer.

 

[ttn333]

OP should definitely do his own research on lithium vs agm. There are a lot of reasons that the vast majority of overlanders choose lithium for a second battery system.

They are not for use under the hood due to engine heat as most know. They are not tied into the main electrical system either. In common usage they are part of a stand alone system that is in the cab or the bed.

Among other reasons that people might choose lithium vs agm are that they have twice the usable power with half the weight. They also work in the temp ranges that will meet most people's needs. As an example, the brand I use, Battle Born, can operate from -4f to 135f with the heated version. For most people that will cover the camping situations they are in. I don't camp in weather below -4 and I don't use the battery when the temps are that low. My battery is not in temps above 135f either.

It all depends on how the OP will use the system. If you're ice fishing in Alaska then maybe lithium isn't the best option for you. If you camp in the middle of winter in a cold climate then stick with agm. Otherwise consider lithium. Many would consider the more advanced lithium technology as tried and true at this point as well.

I'd say more than 90% of people going to the middle of no where do it above 0 F weather. Self heating lifepo4 will more than suffice. Especially since they aren't usually sitting outside in the elements. Add to the fact that they should be functionally fine discharging at the lower temps. It's the charging that is a concern. There's very little reason to run dual agms at this point in time. I had a Luna dual battery setup in the previous truck but it doesn't work so well for periferals like fridges for several nights without having to run the truck. Current system, I can run the fridge and other periferals indefinitely with a renogy 175w panel on the rtt with a Renogy 100ah lifepo4. That panel is super thin and super light. We're talking about .08" and 6lbs. I'm thinking about throwing another 100ah battery in there to run my mini oven. I also carry a noco jumper battery pack.
As a side comment, that lensun and cascadia hood panels are really overpriced for what you get. Although it does look pretty cool and easy to setup for the end user.

 

[Fpolanco]

No, I don't. I didn't do a write up because I wouldn't recommend anyone do what I did. I actually cut open the inside bed wall and installed a battery box that I made so that the battery sits inside the wall a little bit. In these gladiators, we're already struggling for space. So, I tried to save as much as I can. And then running wires along the frame through all of that. It takes a little bravery to cut that bed. So, I didn't want to advise my method knowing that you can't change anything back.

Holy hell…you really went all in!!! I admire the dedication!!

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