My absolute nightmare Jeep Gladiator Experience over the last 20 months

[Stuntman Mike]

Horrible logic. I guess you've never driven the Japanese cars of old - those things rev high and last longer than slower running American made engines of the same era.

No, he is absolutely right.

If you run two identical engines one year, the first with say 3000 rpm and the other with 6000 rpm you can be sure that the one with higher rpm will have a much higher wear.

If you want to compare wear of engines you also have to take into account design and materials.

But you are right, too. If an engine is well designed it will last very long even with high rpm.
I just remember my 2,2 liter 6-Zylinder BMW which rarely saw rpms below 3k and when I sold it with 150 K miles it was still running like new ...

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[ShadowsPapa]

No, he is absolutely right.

If you run two identical engines one year, the first with say 3000 rpm and the other with 6000 rpm you can be sure that the one with higher rpm will have a much higher wear.

If you want to compare wear of engines you also have to take into account design and materials.

But you are right, too. If an engine is well designed it will last very long even with high rpm.
I just remember my 2,2 liter 6-Zylinder BMW which rarely saw rpms below 3k and when I sold it with 150 K miles it was still running like new ...

In the most simple terms, yes - that's a "DUH!" because you are running rings up and down more often, and spinning the journals in the bearings more often.
But that's only part of it.
There's heat, loading of the parts, chamber pressures and so on.
I'm referring to those who hit a hill, go against strong winds (here, it's a combination of both) are towing, whatever, and see it kick down 2 gears and the RPM jumps over 3,000 RPM, maybe even up to 4,000 RPM, and they "lose it" - some here even try to manually shift to keep the RPM down and that's bad. That's actually worse for wear, for the engine.
If you are cruising on I35 headed north, the winds are light, and you aren't towing, for sure, you want the RPM down low to keep the "strokes per mile" down, and use less fuel (that's a modern reason for overdrive and low RPM - fuel consumption).

Look at which JTs are rated for towing and payload - 4.10 gearing, higher RPMs. And the max tow has small tires in combination with the lower (4.10) ratio. That's to keep RPMs up, lower cylinder chamber pressures and temperatures, among other things.
It gets pretty complex as they have to calculate things such as heat rejection and so on.

Anyway, all of my first cars were geared fairly low, engine RPM at highway speeds was in the 3,000 range, and we'd see well over 100,000 miles.
I recall a guy who had a Ford pickup back in my early days working as a mechanic - he hauled a big camper and the engine wound up a bit. He put on headers, and a few other tricks to try to get some more power out of it.
Finally, the heads had to come off - I can't recall details, may have been valve seal failure leading to a burned valve, but I do recall the cylinder appearance in the Ford V8 - like new. Hone cross-hatch marks still there, no ring ridge at the top of the cylinders. That thing was like brand new - right at 100,000 miles.

But people tend to think the most simple, most obvious - of course rings that make fewer trips up and down, bearings that see fewer rotations per mile, should last a lot longer.
But not if it means higher cylinder temperatures, higher chamber pressures under a load when winding it up would reduce the heat, reduce chamber pressures.
Rings aren't just held against cylinder walls by tension. In fact, todays rings are "low tension rings" - meaning minimal spring tension or pressure against the cylinder wall.
It's the pressure of the burning charge shoving the piston down, and getting behind the rings that force them out. More pressure, more the rings are pressed harder out against the cylinder. If you can reduce that pressure with some RPM, you actually reduce wear.

 

[adamjedgar]

.
Take an LS engine, Chevy people have said for years "they are made to rev". They race them,

Do you know how often race engines are rebuilt?

Do you know why they are rebuilt so often?

Because they get the shit flogged out of them!

You may have been a mechanic, however you clearly don't know what you are talking about so I seriously question your mechanical knowledge and skill.

Btw, my "Academic" education is a major in Industrial Technology and Design Education. So when it comes to engineering sciences and metallurgy, I think I have enough knowledge of that field to categorically support my statement that engine wear is directly related to the number of cycles a piston performs during its lifetime.

As ive said, a low revving engine will always last longer than a high revving one.

Your statement about Japanese petrol engines...

The issue here is twofold:

1. Americans think buy American is buying the best...a cultural bullshit claim that simply isnt true,

2. My wife and I own two Toyota landcuisers...1 a 4.5 ltr petrol 6, the other is a 4.5 ltr V8 twin turbo diesel.

Both of these engines are low revving compared aith the Pentastar v6.

The 6 cylinder cruiser engine has stood the test of time and is due for its first engine rebuild with 300000km on the clock. I wonder how many pentastar v6s are still running under the hood of a 2.5 tonne 4wd vehicle with 300,000 km on them? There are shiploads of Toyota's with Hugh km running petrol engines.

So here's your dilemma...

It's either because Toyota build better engines because Americans suck at it or...

The low revving engine just lasts longer (which means the point above is also true... designers/manufacturers for the pentastar build shit engines!)

The funny thing is, how many wrangler 392 conversions are there in the US. from what I've seen online, it seems a lot all for the same reason...the v6 is useless for purpose.

In the most simple terms, yes - that's a "DUH!" because you are running rings up and down more often, and spinning the journals in the bearings more often.
But that's only part of it.
There's heat, loading of the parts, chamber pressures and so on.
I'm referring to those who hit a hill, go against strong winds (here, it's a combination of both) are towing, whatever, and see it kick down 2 gears and the RPM jumps over 3,000 RPM, maybe even up to 4,000 RPM, and they "lose it" - some here even try to manually shift to keep the RPM down and that's bad. That's actually worse for wear, for the engine.
If you are cruising on I35 headed north, the winds are light, and you aren't towing, for sure, you want the RPM down low to keep the "strokes per mile" down, and use less fuel (that's a modern reason for overdrive and low RPM - fuel consumption).

Look at which JTs are rated for towing and payload - 4.10 gearing, higher RPMs. And the max tow has small tires in combination with the lower (4.10) ratio. That's to keep RPMs up, lower cylinder chamber pressures and temperatures, among other things.
It gets pretty complex as they have to calculate things such as heat rejection and so on.

Anyway, all of my first cars were geared fairly low, engine RPM at highway speeds was in the 3,000 range, and we'd see well over 100,000 miles.
I recall a guy who had a Ford pickup back in my early days working as a mechanic - he hauled a big camper and the engine wound up a bit. He put on headers, and a few other tricks to try to get some more power out of it.
Finally, the heads had to come off - I can't recall details, may have been valve seal failure leading to a burned valve, but I do recall the cylinder appearance in the Ford V8 - like new. Hone cross-hatch marks still there, no ring ridge at the top of the cylinders. That thing was like brand new - right at 100,000 miles.

But people tend to think the most simple, most obvious - of course rings that make fewer trips up and down, bearings that see fewer rotations per mile, should last a lot longer.
But not if it means higher cylinder temperatures, higher chamber pressures under a load when winding it up would reduce the heat, reduce chamber pressures.
Rings aren't just held against cylinder walls by tension. In fact, todays rings are "low tension rings" - meaning minimal spring tension or pressure against the cylinder wall.
It's the pressure of the burning charge shoving the piston down, and getting behind the rings that force them out. More pressure, more the rings are pressed harder out against the cylinder. If you can reduce that pressure with some RPM, you actually reduce wear.

You are playing games with changing the test environment variables trying to make a case for longer engine life.

That is not how testing works or engine life expectancy comparisons. None of those things are relevant.

Engine wear is comparing same technologies, same variables, its like for like.

Given the standards, there is si.lly nothing to compare. A lentastar v6 being driven around always within a comfortable moderate rev range will outlast one being redlined all the time.

The solution is to engine swap to an engine with higher torque that can do the same work with less effort...and that's the point here. You may want your pentastar to run under the hood of a Mac truck, but it ain't going to last long as the job being demanded of it is just too great.

Btw, I can prove my point...look at the number of businesses who engine swap wranglers with a v8 engine. America's Most Wanted are famous for building the engines used in said swaps. This is because the v6 just isn't up to the task.

Also, look at the customer reviews regarding the 3.0 ltr turbo diesel engines in the wrangler/gladiators. Owners seems to absolutely love that engine...its torque is excellent and it's economical and so far seems to be very reliable.

 

[adamjedgar]

Ah shit...one day out driving and I go out this morning to find this. The front rhs wheel was just touching the wheelie bin wheel when i parked it last night.

the dealership just changed the oils in both front and rear diffs...could it be they overfilled them and/or its blown a seal?
I've had this shaft out about a year ago...the seal is in near the diff pumpkin..so why now straight after oil changed?

is this a front diff strip to replace the seal? (I fear it is)

I have found a YouTube video for a 2012 jk front axle seal...a huge job 8 hours!

 

[Blade1668]

That is a really interesting point/question.

After I left Sydney the car travelled about 2 hours before the temperature suddenly went through the roof...there was absolutely zero warning

there had been no unusual predetonation I could hear, engine appeared normal and had been travelling without issue.

In the 2 years I've owned the car and travelled 50k km, not once has the engine temp changed from normal under any circumstance...whether driving on the road or 4wd'ing in mud or on the beach.

Because no water was leaking externally (although i could smell "hot coolant"), my first thought was a blown headgasket or cracked head.

I'm still suspicious about the water pump though, I can't see how a mechanic changing it off the old engine onto the new "long block" wouldn't have checked it and/or noticed if it was stuffed?

Do you guys think that there's a chance that I'm being fed bullshit because they are short staffed? Ive heard the mechanic who originally started my engine change was also leaving(due to dealership having gone broke and is closing down in 4weeks).

One thing I've really noticed about service centres these days...honesty is almost non existent...so I'm

My condolences with this one.
Yes I would agree you have been fed a few lines of B.S. All manufacturers have sold some junk/ basket case products. I'd guess there is more to this situation than all parties are passing information about on.

 

[adamjedgar]

My condolences with this one.
Yes I would agree you have been fed a few lines of B.S. All manufacturers have sold some junk/ basket case products. I'd guess there is more to this situation than all parties are passing information about on.

On my end all of the issues have been above board.

All of the issues with the car are legitimate and none of it has been caused by abuse.

The only parts replaced on the Gladiator that were not warranty related are:

1. Rhs front cv rubber boot (a stick went through this out 4wding). This was at my own cost and I never asked for warranty on that part.
2. All engine oils used including when the water pump was replaced, and when cylinder heads were removed, and again when oil pump failed (I shouldn't have been asked to pay for oil in those cases however I paid without complaining.)
3. I paid for 2 of the 6 O2 sensors that have been replaced in the last 12 months
4. I purchased handbrake shoes and brake pads

 

[KevinC]

You may have been a mechanic, however you clearly don't know what you are talking about so I seriously question your mechanical knowledge and skill.

Easy now.
Debates are good. There is just a better way of conversing your thoughts than calling someone out like that.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

Easy now.
Debates are good. There is just a better way of conversing your thoughts than calling someone out like that.

OP was called out a few pages back.

I guess you aren't at all familiar with auto repair...

 

[KevinC]

OP was called out a few pages back.

Missed that one. Just trying to keep it civil and not thread locked.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Easy now.
Debates are good. There is just a better way of conversing your thoughts than calling someone out like that.

No problem here. I have enough customers with total faith in me, don't need his acceptance or agreement.

I've got the knowledge and reputation.
He can't take that away with angry words.

Done trying to help since he's got it all figured out and no one is going to change that.

 

[sharpsicle]

Should we just cut to the part where we measure each person's 'manhood' to determine a winner? Feels like it would save a lot of time here.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Ah shit...one day out driving and I go out this morning to find this. The front rhs wheel was just touching the wheelie bin wheel when i parked it last night.

the dealership just changed the oils in both front and rear diffs...could it be they overfilled them and/or its blown a seal?

No. These are vented and the type of seals used can operate under fluid at up to at least 7psi. Hard to overfill as it would run back out at them.
Pull the fill plug on level ground to check.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

just on reputation alone

Reputation alone is all we have to be known by but you don’t want to be that guy who’s reputation becomes nothing because he’s well known to weaponize it to belittle, shame, discount and slight others all while grandstanding his greatness and achievements. That doesn’t answer anything and goes beyond the spirit of the initial reasons one posts looking for help.

If this is a school yard and we’re all here to play but then there’s that one player that steals the moment, grandstands that he knows the sport better than anyone and he needs to bring all his trophies recognitions to prove it, the fun is gone.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Reputation alone is all we have to be known by but you don’t want to be that guy who’s reputation becomes nothing because he’s well known to weaponize it to belittle, shame, discount and slight others all while grandstanding his greatness and achievements. That doesn’t answer anything and goes beyond the spirit of the initial reasons one posts looking for help.

If this is a school yard and we’re all here to play but then there’s that one player that steals the moment, grandstands that he knows the sport better than anyone and he needs to bring all his trophies recognitions to prove it, the fun is gone.

Only responding to his counter arguments in prior posts. For some reason, he chooses to not believe facts or experience over "what he's read" or tries to translate over from other machinery. So he's got some degrees in another field. Doesn't directly translate over to engines. My thing is he'd probably argue against his surgeon with all of the training experience, skills and so on - because his surgeon throws things out there that he disagrees with because he's been told or believes otherwise or has a biology degree.

I do agree with you - and I should have put his quotes directly into my post to show what I was countering.......

For examples, his belief that diesel engines have long life, less wear because of the lower RPM is flawed.
It's about piston velocity. Stroke comes into play there. A low RPM engine can actually have a higher piston velocity than a higher RPM engine.
These aren't simple air compressors where the ring load is always the same against the cylinder regardless of load in the engine.

I guess later I'll try to post some math, and engine building information. All things must be considered.
Or on second thought, it won't matter. Not sure why he's asking as he's already figured it all out even never having ever touched an engine.

I think he'd probably counter Musk on the power needed to break earth's gravitational pull for a million pound rocket.

He's had crappy luck for sure - and he's not the only one who's had vehicles just be one thing after another - it does happen, and it's made worse by the "support" of Jeep - especially there, but there's some pre-concieved notions that are also problematic here.
My first efforts were to try to assist and figure or explain what's going on, but his mind is all made up on what's going on.

(if there was so much experience involved, he'd have no question on the seal....... sort of supporting some contentions I have)

That doesn’t answer anything and goes beyond the spirit of the initial reasons one posts looking for help.

Tried answering, but he doesn't like factual explanations and his mind is made up.
He knows for a fact what exactly caused each problem.

 

[adamjedgar]

No. These are vented and the type of seals used can operate under fluid at up to at least 7psi. Hard to overfill as it would run back out at them.
Pull the fill plug on level ground to check

OK will do that when I get back home in a few days.

The car has spent so much time sitting this year, im kinda not surprised its done a seal. Lots of muddy water leaves crap near that seal.
Would be good if there was a way of easily flushing inner axle near that seal after 4wding in mud.

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