Anyone else use this ATF in their Gladiator 8-speed?

[Mr._Bill]

Many untruths in this post
Jump up and read my post . Follow the directions . Mine now works as intended and NO CLUNK , NO AWKWARD 3-4 SHIFT . Dont listen to garbage like that.

Jeep is the warranty provider. They clearly state that the transmission needs no maintenance, under normal operating conditions. Changing the fluid sets you up for the possibility of a warranty denial, especially if you do not use the Mopar Transmission Fluid. It all depends on the dealer.

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[WILDHOBO]

Jeep is the warranty provider. They clearly state that the transmission needs no maintenance, under normal operating conditions. Changing the fluid sets you up for the possibility of a warranty denial, especially if you do not use the Mopar Transmission Fluid. It all depends on the dealer.

These are not lifetime fluid transmissions. It’s been discussed at length. Jeep is just lazy. Their prediction is that most will get past 60k before needing transmission service. Then they’ll just say you need to buy a new one. No way. Not on my watch.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

These are not lifetime fluid transmissions. It’s been discussed at length. Jeep is just lazy. Their prediction is that most will get past 60k before needing transmission service. Then they’ll just say you need to buy a new one. No way. Not on my watch.

But, they are, according to the company that invented them.........

Some of that discussion is wrong. ZF has said it doesn't need maintenance under normal circumstances.
I've got the ZF document.

FCA is following ZF's own recommendations! So it's not being lazy or trying to show they are cheaper to maintain and so on. It's not about "making it last long enough to need a new one".

Here's the quote from ZF about these very transmissions -

And this is what any manufacturer would tell you - again, this is a quote from ZF -

So no, it's not like people are claiming trying to support or justify their own "Jeep is full of shit, I'm doing it right at every 40K!!".
It's lifetime - however, "YMMV" applies - tow a whole lot, get it hot, abuse it in the rocks - change it sooner. DUH.

Most of the arguments, even here, are just not right.

 

[g2020]

If you want to risk your transmission for a $248.48, go ahead. Along with a requirement to drop your pan three times, putting more wear on the gasket, and still having mixed fluids with unknown chemistry compatibility. Makes zero sense. Your vehicle, so what you want, but don’t recommend this stuff to others that might take your advice by mistake.

As already mentioned in my reply to ShadowsPapa, I added a disclaimer to my original reply for those of us with less experience. Thanks for the advice.

I am not advising anyone to use a specific ATF. I list several brands of ATF for the automatic transmission in the table in section 1.10.1 of my post on Links to Prices: three brands that are ZF-approved and five (claimed equivalents) that are not. Check out the table, especially the precautions in bold red font. At the moment, ZF LifeguardFluid 9 (AA01.500.001) is the least-expensive ZF-approved equivalent, and Valvoline MAXLIFE MV (VV3246) is the least expensive claimed equivalent (not ZF-approved). I listed these two based on price.

At the risk of resurfacing the chemistry vs. warranty debate, I will say that the warranties, for DIY, on AMSOIL SS FE (ATLPK-EA), ROYAL PURPLE MAX ATF (01320), and Valvoline MAXLIFE MV (VV3246), each of which is a claimed equivalent (not ZF-approved), include coverage of damage to other parts. What is the warranty, for DIY, on any ZF-approved OEM brand (such as MOPAR, ZF, or Honda)? Zip, zero, nada (implied warranty, limited to product-replacement or money-back). To repeat the last footnote from the table mentioned above, "Wait until after the power train warranty on your vehicle expires to consider DIY and/or using a claimed equivalent".

With that said, I will continue to use a ZF-approved equivalent ATF (MOPAR 8 & 9 Speed ATF, 68218925AB, or ZF LifeguardFluid 9, AA01.500.001) as long as my vehicle is in excellent condition. As long as it runs like new, I will choose chemistry over warranty.

To "follow the book" on ATF for the automatic transmission, my post on ATF Equivalents includes seven key documents from ZF and the Jeep owner's manual. The only opinion pieces in the article are a reference to "other options" at the beginning of the post (in response to a reply from Hootbro), my calculation of the transmission service interval for severe / heavy-duty vehicle use (42,000 miles +/- 5,000 miles), and an opinion on how a particular aftermarket brand will handle a warranty claim. All of the info provided is documented to the hilt. And no, I didn't use ChatG#Y or any other AI. Everything I wrote in that post was learned through long hours, reviewing threads on this forum & other forums, and working with Maximus Gladius (to add the section on "Testing"). The subject of ATF for the automatic transmission is not for the faint of heart.

As for transmission service intervals other than "lifetime" (bogus, from Jeep) or 93K miles (normal driving, from ZF) for the automatic transmission, I have no idea where others get their info. I follow the book. In the case of ATF for the automatic transmission, I consider info provided by ZF (the licensor) to be as close to an extension of the owner's manual as it can get. For legal purposes / in case of a warranty claim, it is important to remember that ZF, the licensor of the automatic transmission and MOPAR 8 & 9 Speed ATF, is not part of Stellantis / FCA US LLC / Chrysler / Jeep.

 

[g2020]

FCA is following ZF's own recommendations!

Yes, but FCA doesn't acknowledge the rest of the same paragraph. It's like selective listening.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As for transmission service intervals other than "lifetime" (bogus, from Jeep)

LOL - repeating what's been debunked -

Everything I wrote in that post was learned through long hours, reviewing threads on this forum & other forums,

Not always a good source of information...........

 

[WILDHOBO]

As already mentioned in my reply to ShadowsPapa, I added a disclaimer to my original reply for those of us with less experience. Thanks for the advice.

I am not advising anyone to use a specific ATF. I list nine brands of ATF for the automatic transmission in the table in section 1.10.1 of my post on Links to Prices: three brands that are ZF-approved and six (claimed equivalents) that are not. Check out the table, especially the precautions in bold red font. At the moment, ZF LifeguardFluid 9 (AA01.500.001) is the least-expensive ZF-approved equivalent, and Valvoline MAXLIFE MV (VV3246) is the least expensive claimed equivalent (not ZF-approved). I listed these two based on price.

At the risk of resurfacing the chemistry vs. warranty debate, I will say that the warranties, for DIY, on AMSOIL SS FE (ATLPK-EA), ROYAL PURPLE MAX ATF (01320), and Valvoline MAXLIFE MV (VV3246), each of which is a claimed equivalent (not ZF-approved), include coverage of damage to other parts. What is the warranty, for DIY, on any ZF-approved OEM brand (such as MOPAR, ZF, and Honda)? Zip, zero, nada (implied warranty, limited to product-replacement or money-back). To repeat the last footnote from the table mentioned above, "Wait until after the drivetrain warranty on your vehicle expires to consider DIY and/or using a claimed equivalent".

With that said, I will continue to use a ZF-approved equivalent ATF (MOPAR 8 & 9 Speed ATF, 68218925AB, or ZF LifeguardFluid 9, AA01.500.001) as long as my vehicle is in excellent condition. As long as it runs like new, I will choose chemistry over warranty.

To "follow the book" on ATF for the automatic transmission, my post on ATF Equivalents includes seven key documents from ZF and the Jeep owner's manual. The only opinion pieces in the article are a reference to "other options" at the beginning of the post (in response to a reply from Hootbro), my calculation of the transmission service interval for severe / heavy-duty vehicle use (42,000 miles +/- 5,000 miles), and an opinion on how a particular aftermarket brand will handle a warranty claim. All of the info provided is documented to the hilt. And no, I didn't use ChatG#Y or any other AI. Everything I wrote in that post was learned through long hours, reviewing threads on this forum & other forums, and working with Maximus Gladius (to add the section on "Testing"). The subject of ATF for the automatic transmission is not for the faint of heart.

As for transmission service intervals other than "lifetime" (bogus, from Jeep) or 93K miles (normal driving, from ZF) for the automatic transmission, I have no idea where others get their info. I follow the book. In the case of ATF for the automatic transmission, I consider info provided by ZF (the licensor) to be as close to an extension of the owner's manual as it can get. For legal purposes / in case of a warranty claim, it is important to remember that ZF, the licensor of the automatic transmission and MOPAR 8 & 9 Speed ATF, is not part of Stellantis / FCA US LLC / Chrysler / Jeep.

All of this is too complicated, and not applicable to the simple truth, in my opinion, also from lots of research from smarter people than me. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT’S AN APPROVED FLUID. DON’T MIX FLUIDS. AND DONT DO TRANSMISSION FLUSHES TO AVOID MIXING. Since it’s impossible to not mix, just use MOPAR 8/9 ATF. Done. Why is this even a question? Who cares who warranties it if it fails. It’s not ZF, and never will be, so who cares what their book says. Mopar service manual is all that matters.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yes, but FCA doesn't acknowledge the rest of the same paragraph. It's like selective listening.

That's where common sense comes in..........

From Jeep -

Note the words - "Under normal operating conditions"...............

I've done more transmission work than anyone here, no way I'm going any less than perhaps 70,000 miles. Might go lower due to the abuse of snow plowing. But even my trailer towing doesn't see the transmission temperatures very high. Heat is what messes up the fluid.
That's always been the rule.
You can do whatever you want - it's your truck/Jeep, but unless you get it hot or in situations with extreme loads, constant shifting and so on - it will last.
People fear what they don't understand.
Do whatever, I'm just trying to counter the FEAR MONGERING about needing to change it at 50K or less. Transmissions decades ago went many thousands of miles - not sealed units, not well cooled, and inferior clutch materials and fluids. The idea that a modern system needs more frequent changes than one from 1985? A hoot.

Don't take your info from forums -they are loaded with opinions, often not based on experience, facts or real research.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

All of this is too complicated,

Someone keeps trying to make it MORE complicated with extensive comparisons of oil and fluids and so on and info from forums, not experience or facts or research.
It's simple, really.

 

[JTGuy]

Well here we go again with the ATF change with hopes of fixing the clunk. I'll order a pan and filter set with ZF 8-9 speed fluid. I will wait for a word to do it. With all my mods There is a good chance my warranty is toast anyway. My dealer service guy said they will warranty it if it ever fails but says it probably will never fail. I have never towed but it has gotten HOT, close to 230 on the Nor Cal BDR. But this trans issues is starting to really bug me. The cold reverse clunk is a real snap at times and little other times, along with a power shift at 3-4. Any thoughts?

 

[WILDHOBO]

Well here we go again with the ATF change with hopes of fixing the clunk. I'll order a pan and filter set with ZF 8-9 speed fluid. I will wait for a word to do it. With all my mods There is a good chance my warranty is toast anyway. My dealer service guy said they will warranty it if it ever fails but says it probably will never fail. I have never towed but it has gotten HOT, close to 230 on the Nor Cal BDR. But this trans issues is starting to really bug me. The cold reverse clunk is a real snap at times and little other times, along with a power shift at 3-4. Any thoughts?

If you’re replacing the pan, I highly recommend the PPE, and to proactively buy a new gasket regardless of which pan. Depending on the year of your JT, they updated the gasket style.

 

[g2020]

LOL - repeating what's been debunked -

Not always a good source of information...........

You used the right word. The first sentence above is debunked, or contradicted, by the second sentence. Why did you leave out most of the second sentence?

Here is a running list of service interval recommendations for the automatic transmission. The first step in removing the perception of fear-mongering is to present all of the info in one place.

Automatic Transmission Service Interval Recommendations (Shortest to Longest)

1. SEVERE DUTY / OFF-ROAD / HEAVY-DUTY / FREQUENT TRAILER TOWING / FREQUENT HIGH SPEEDS / SPORTY DRIVING (terms used by Jeep & ZF)

Every 30K mi: Hootbro's service interval (new filter every 60K mi)
Every 42K mi +/- 5K mi: g2020 (me), based on 40% to 50% of specific ZF guidance (93K mi) for normal driving; see section called "ATF for automatic transmission" in Key Info
Every 60K mi: Adding 10K mi to ShadowsPapa's second suggested service interval (because 50K or less is "fear mongering")
Every 70K mi: ShadowsPapa's first suggested service interval
Shorter interval than every 93K mi: ZF LifeguardFluid 9 PDS (p. 1, paragraph 7); shorter interval not specified; see item #2 in ATF Equivalents

Summary of SEVERE DUTY (Etc...) Automatic Transmission Service Interval Recommendations

Shortest: 30K mi
Average: 50K mi (ShadowsPapa got 2 entries)
Longest: 70K mi

- Use common sense: A shorter (than normal) service interval is required for a vehicle that is frequently driven under severe conditions
- Immediate attention: Water contamination can end the life of a fluid

2. NORMAL DRIVING

Every 93K mi: ZF LifeguardFluid 9 PDS (p. 1, paragraph 6, 2nd sentence); 150K km = 93K mi; see item #2 in ATF Equivalents
Lifetime oil: ZF LifeguardFluid 9 PDS (p. 1, paragraph 6, 1st sentence); see item #2 in ATF Equivalents
Life of the vehicle: Online version of 2020 Jeep owner's manual (bottom-center of p. 261, and top-right of p. 262); see item #5 and item #6 in ATF Equivalents

Next, we need to determine what "life of the vehicle" means. There is no service interval for the automatic transmission on the maintenance schedule in the owner's manual.

Possible definitions of "life of the vehicle":

5 years / 60K mi (when the power train warranty expires)
93K mi (specific ZF guidance for normal driving)
150K mi (endpoint of maintenance schedule in owner's manual)
Until the original owner no longer owns the vehicle
Until the vehicle is scrapped
Other?

Your guess on the definition of "life of the vehicle" is as good as mine.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You used the right word. The first sentence above is debunked, or contradicted, by the second sentence. Why did you leave out most of the second sentence?

HAHAHA - there's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to begin.
I posted the most important parts.
The only thing debunked is your thinking - you are taking internet opinions or what some prefer to do as if it's necessary or fact.
You are not taking anything at all from people in the business or who have a lifetime of real experience, having seen the insides of hundreds of transmissions over many years.

30K? That's simply a feel good thing. It's his - he can do it, he can do 10K if he wants.

You are gathering guesses, preferences, speculation, and tossing it out there as suggestions.

Your "best guess", however, is that the owners manual does stop at some point - and 150,000 isn't untypical of modern vehicles. IF they are going out that far, one can assume they expect it to last that long.

There is simply no reason to do a fluid change "under normal driving" at anything less than about 60-80K - depending on your temperatures and so on. (no reason other than it makes the owner happy, a feel-good thing)
You can bet there's a fair number of forum members who have run up into those numbers before the first fluid change, and have had no ill effects, because unless they get it hot, it's going to last that long.

From a Mercedes related site -

Comparatively, automatic transmissions offer a recommended interval of around 60,000 to 100,000 miles.

Gee, that falls into my EXPERIENCE, hands-on working on transmissions, and what ZF says.
people are living in the past where the transmission had a dipstick and the older generations of fluids.
There's a lot of people who still believe Type F fluid is best - even though FORD dropped it from their own transmissions. People have taken the intervals of the past and carried them forward, or seen a handful of people with transmission problems and decided that to avoid those issues, they should start changing fluid as often as possible.

You glean stuff from forums, see what others are doing, and toss that out as what should be done? Good thing you aren't a teacher/educator or even a politician. Maybe most of the kids are just tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

If you look at recommendations from SERVICE PROVIDERS - they of course are making money, and, they have to make their numbers cover everything from current to 20 years old. So of course they will suggest low mileage changes.

For references - you refer back to yourself - with no transmission experience, and the only thing you know about anything is what you read on forums or web sites
or
you refer to forum posts.

How about getting some REAL information from people who actually have real experience, or the companies that make the transmissions themselves, instead of opinions, self-references, forum posts from inexperienced people (lacking of any real transmission experience covering decades)

So, the person who has hands on for years, having done work on many many transmissions and is college and factory trained is being compared to opinions of forum members.
Got it.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Every 30K mi: Hootbro's service interval (new filter every 60K mi)
Every 42K mi +/- 5K mi: g2020 (me)

Well you can add my intervals being…. Once a year (approximately 30k kms) at about May, before our hot ambient temps kick in. Transmission has never seen temps 190+. Just because it can or the oil flash points are probably double + that, why would I want to see it or even push it there? Why?

Lab numbers look great. Lab can’t even get an oxidation number in order to obtain a “synthetic spike” in order to confirm if the Mopar 8/9 speed ATF is a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil. I could fix that by putting on more milage…a LOT more milage, but then there’s the “lifetime” guys, you know, the ones that trade in their vehicles just before warranty is up,…they have their own ‘badge of ignore it” milage numbers to have a lab test oxidation numbers and from that, lab can determine full or semi-synthetic type.

To quote a great question often asked by @ShadowsPapa, “why?”…. Why would I want to see oxidation numbers? Why would I want to see high temps because the oil can do it or transmission can go much higher? Why?

Why is maintaining a higher level of “clean, non oxidized” oil so much worse than a transmission that’s “learned” to function with debris saturated, never touched oil in 60k miles +?

Why are those who take a higher level of care (pan drops 50k or less) painted with a brush that’s demeaning or that we are wallowing in our own “fear mongering” ideas?

Why is early maintenance frowned upon by the “lifetime” guys and yet these guys jump ship when warranty is up but then hang their hat on their ability to have done absolutely nothing to help advance the health of that component?

So, there’s two camps here.
1. Don’t touch it, transmission will “learn” how to operate with oil that’s not touched in 60k+ miles. Oil full of debris from day one which includes so hot temps and maybe some aspects of being burnt a few times, oxidation numbers can be measured, wear and tear and just keeps compounding etc…(fact, not fear) and;

2. Keep it clean, transmission will “learn” how to operate with clean oil, additives are always at their peak saturation, doing what they’re formulated to do.

@ShadowsPapa, you’ve said (and I’ll be the first to agree with you on one solid point you’ve made, (you’ve made a lot) “heat kills transmissions” …why would I want to push the limits of that, “because it can”?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

First, although I'm not a "lifetime" fluid guy as the quotes here go, I know realities and will go back to what certain members always preach about numbers:
If it's rated at 1,200 pounds you know it can do more because of the engineering buffers and so on.
Over and over certain people here say "you are fine going over because the numbers allow a large safety margin.
Fluids will be the same - you know it "could go more", they aren't about to say it will go 90K if at that point, it's trashed. They have done the research and know it will go quite a bit more, but allow a buffer, safety margin. Same here.

that’s “learned” to function with debris saturated, never touched oil in 60k miles +?

That's not how it works, either. It doesn't "learn" the debris saturated fluid because that's not how the learning goes (it's not at all about the fluid because it's watching the PRESSURES and the time it takes to build those pressures and if it was based on how you say, then it would never work the same between a cold start and after you reach 220 degree fluid temps
AND
No, ATF is very low detergent, so there's no debris saturated fluid! If anything, it will lose a certain amount of viscosity.
AFT is made to DROP OUT any "debris" or particles. It never circulates with the fluid! It's the opposite of engine oil. Engine oil has detergents - and we know what detergents do - they hold the dirt in suspension until it is filtered out. Much like your home washing machine - which holds the dirt in suspension until that water is dumped out, engine oil holds it until it's filtered out.
AFT, on the other hand, DROPS the crud into the pan and low points, points of low flow, like the sandbars of a river. (why flushing can be bad)
Automatics typically have screens, because they are aimed only at taking out big chunks, there are no filters to filter the fluid. The fluid drops its load. So your thinking on the ATF, LEARNING, and fluid carrying all of that wear stuff is very wrong, sorry, totally missing the mark.
Engine oil - high detergents - hold it until its filtered out, don't let it drop out.
AFT - LOW detergents - drop the crud in the pan, don't let it build up in the fluid and circulate!

Hootbro can do whatever fluid change intervals he wants - no one is smacking him down for that and he has never ever suggested, never, not with anything he does, that what he does, others should also do, or that others should follow it. He's only saying what he does personally. Kudos.
Further kudos because he's also smart enough to know - you don't need to change that filter because it's not really filtering much because ATF is LOW detergent. There's pretty much nothing to filter unless the transmission is already going south. Again, he knows changing the filter is just not necessary.

My wife's JLU will likely go full life on the fluid - it never goes off road, never tows, and only sees ordinary driving under decent conditions. IF she keeps it that long, I'll take it 80K at least, maybe more, before touching that transmission.

If you never see temps over 220 on your transmission, you are babying it, that fluid will last a very very long time. That's nothing! And if you never see over 200 - wow, it will indeed last 90K. (towing, hard off-roading will reduce the miles you should go, regardless of temperatures, and if you let it hunt in the hills or while towing, reduce the numbers.)

Hootbro does his OWN THING, he never suggests that it's better or the best or what anyone else should do. He just says "this is what I do".
That's it. He tends to stay out of this stuff as he's smarter than the average bear. He'll never say what he does better, good, ideal or suggest it for anyone. He'll tell you of his oil filter experiences, and leave it at that, same for transmissions. It's his own personal preferences, that's it.
(given his record, lifetime for him is about 3 years??)

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