4-tire rotation vs 5-tire rotation

[auxSwitch]

I did search the forum, so if I managed to miss a thread - please point me there, but:

As I'm waiting for my JTR, I've discovered much to my surprise (surely due to moving from a Wrangler and this being my first truck) that the spare has a steel wheel, but, based on what I understood, a full tire. In other words, it's not a (modern day) sedan "get to nearest service" spare, nor a Wrangler's "just like the other 4 wheels". So:

a) Did I misunderstand the spare tire situation on a JTR? (I still don't have mine on hand, so can't check)
b) If the situation is indeed as I understand it, any flaws in my below thinking on 5-tire rotations?

Since the tire is a full size tire, I'd rather get another matching wheel for the spare and do 5-tire rotations. My argument for 5-tire rotation is - while it may be cheaper to swap 4 tires at a time, my spare ends up having little wear, but subject to deterioration due to age. By going with 5-tire rotation, i ensure even wear and I'm swapping all tires at once.

Or am I overthinking it (I am a motorcycle rider, so in my mind tires are important) and 4-tire rotation is perfectly fine?

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[dcmdon]

You are overthinking it.

A spare should last 10 years under the truck. I suspect most people here won't keep their Gladiator that long.

I just don't get the point of 5 tire rotation. But whatever. If it makes the OCD folks happy, then great.

My plan once I get 35s for my Gladiator is to guy a used 35" or 315/70-17 tire on ebay. They can be had from reputable sellers for about $100 if you don't need a ton of tread.

Mount that on the steel wheel and you are good to go for $100.

There's no point in putting a new tire on the spare and there's no point in putting that tire on anything other than the factory steelies.

If you are keeping factory sized tires, then its even easier. Do nothing. Spend nothing.

I've ridden bikes since I was 9. (I'm in my 50s). I get your concern. This isn't a motorcycle.
The spare gets you home. It doesn't take much. And if you do a lot of off roading where you are far from home. For the price of a new aluminum wheel, you can get TWO used tires and one more steelie. So you would have a second spare tire to stick in the bed when you are going off-roading.

 

[gerky18]

I do the 5 tire rotation and when I purchased my new wheels bought 5 just for that reason. I agree with you on having a matching set so to say. I prefer having even wear on all tires because it does make a difference (maybe small) if the spare is needed and it is a different tread depth. Another reason I do the 5 rotation is if I decide to change tire size I didn't "waste" the spare. It might be a preference and the cost benefit from what I've read for milage gain vs tire price seems pretty close too.

 

[sharpsicle]

Do whatever makes you happy. There's no cost savings or real benefit in the end. It's a wash. After all, it's just a spare tire. It doesn't need to get used all the time or match the other 4 to be fully functional and useful when you need it.

As I've said before, if it were a visible spare, I'd match it for appearance's sake only and do a 5 tire rotation. But ours is hidden, so why spend the money for no benefit?

 

[Mtpisgah]

I ordered new tires and wheels last week and am going with four wheels and five tires. The guy at the shop suggested not doing the five tire rotation due to wear on the spider gears of one tire always being slightly different. I do not know if this is accurate but he could have just as easily sold me an extra wheel. He also told me that the clutch issue on our JL was a warranty issue, not wear, and to take it to the dealer. This was after I asked for a price for a new clutch and he test drove it. Warranty covered it. So I listen to him.

 

[dcmdon]

Do whatever makes you happy. There's no cost savings or real benefit in the end. It's a wash. After all, it's just a spare tire. It doesn't need to get used all the time or match the other 4 to be fully functional and useful when you need it.

As I've said before, if it were a visible spare, I'd match it for appearance's sake only and do a 5 tire rotation. But ours is hidden, so why spend the money for no benefit?

That's the thing. Its not a wash. Its more expensive and more hassle.

There is literally zero benefit if you are running factory sized wheels.

And for the cost of a new tire and wheel you can buy TWO spares consisting of used tires and steel wheels. Which is much more useful if you pinch a sidewall off road and now have to get home.

its really a pointless indulgence in Obsessive Compulsive behavior.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You are overthinking it.

A spare should last 10 years under the truck. I suspect most people here won't keep their Gladiator that long.

I just don't get the point of 5 tire rotation. But whatever. If it makes the OCD folks happy, then great.

My plan once I get 35s for my Gladiator is to guy a used 35" or 315/70-17 tire on ebay. They can be had from reputable sellers for about $100 if you don't need a ton of tread.

Mount that on the steel wheel and you are good to go for $100.

There's no point in putting a new tire on the spare and there's no point in putting that tire on anything other than the factory steelies.

If you are keeping factory sized tires, then its even easier. Do nothing. Spend nothing.

I've ridden bikes since I was 9. (I'm in my 50s). I get your concern. This isn't a motorcycle.
The spare gets you home. It doesn't take much. And if you do a lot of off roading where you are far from home. For the price of a new aluminum wheel, you can get TWO used tires and one more steelie. So you would have a second spare tire to stick in the bed when you are going off-roading.

No they won't. And tire shops won't touch tires over 7 years old. The tire shops here, the legit ones, they look at the date on the sidewall and in two shops they saw a date of just over 7 years and not so politely suggested I take the tire back home.

Further - we have multiple times run into tire issues where a hazard went through the tire within 1" of the sidewall or edge of the tread - that also won't touch those! Imagine a Jeep with about 30,000 miles on it and you blow a tire and they won't fix it. There's still 20,000 left on the others and you can't get that matching tread any more. What do you do? You talk the guy into fixing it if you put it on as a spare and use the spare instead and go back to a 4 tire rotation.
I've had situations where having a matching spare that was rotated in saved me hundreds of dollars as I didn't have to go buy one tire and got by until I needed another set.
The tire companies recommend it, JEEP recommends it (it's in the owner manuals!)

There's tons of discussion on this very topic. Jeep and tire makers even recommend 5 tire rotations. The Jeep owner manual says "if so equipped" (meaning matching wheel and tire) to do a 5 tire rotation. There's several great YT videos on the reasoning.

The guy at the shop suggested not doing the five tire rotation due to wear on the spider gears of one tire always being slightly different.

That's a total crock of shit - unadulterated BS. There's ALWAYS movement on those gears anyway - ya think they stay totally still back there? Even on what you think is a level highway, there's movement. And the reason TO DO a 5 tire rotation is to keep all tires evenly worn.
"The guy at the tire shop" isn't trained or educated and has never been a mechanic - he sells and mounts and balances tires. That's usually it.
And if you figure the wear like I have and have posted here multiple times about this very topic - the difference in tire size when you DO a 5 tire rotation is about 2 revolutions per mile! You have more difference than that taking a curve on an entrance or exit ramp. The guy is full of it. I've been at this for 45 years including working selling and fixing tires and I've done the math.
I've also spent my life as a mechanic rebuilding and repairing things including differentials. If 2 or 3 revolutions per mile difference bothers you, you need to never take that gentle curve on the highway. I'd bet that you have that sort of a difference anyway due to what's called the rolling diameter based on PSI and weight of the truck and other factors.
I have always done a 5 tire on any vehicle I've ever owned that had a matching spare - and I bought a wheel so I could do it on this truck. The math is real - the difference is extremely small when you plug in the diameter difference and figure rotational differences.

And no it's not more expensive unless you trade vehicles every couple of years or 30,000 miles. It's a wash in the long run if you keep a vehicle longer than 1 set or 2 of tires.

Direct quote from Tire Rack -
if the vehicle's four wheels and tires on the ground match the spare wheel and tire (if non-directional and not branded "for temporary use"), they should be included in the tire rotation pattern.




But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

 

[sharpsicle]

But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

I think in this thread alone, plenty of valid reasons have been given. Not to mention the others on this subject. This statement seems rather disingenuous from someone of your caliber. Especially when you say yourself the difference is minimal and the cost is a wash.

 

[dcmdon]

Further - we have multiple times run into tire issues where a hazard went through the tire within 1" of the sidewall or edge of the tread - that also won't touch those! Imagine a Jeep with about 30,000 miles on it and you blow a tire and they won't fix it. There's still 20,000 left on the others and you can't get that matching tread any more. What do you do? You talk the guy into fixing it if you put it on as a spare and use the spare instead and go back to a 4 tire rotation.
I've had situations where having a matching spare that was rotated in saved me hundreds of dollars as I didn't have to go buy one tire and got by until I needed another set.
The tire companies recommend it, JEEP recommends it (it's in the owner manuals!)

Having a spare that matches the others and using that to drop down to a 4 tire rotation is still the only reason that makes sense. But it does make a lot of sense.

I've had to replace a damaged tire twice in the last 2 years.
Once I was able to find a used tire on ebay that was less than 2 years old and had the same tread depth as the old tire.

Once I couldn't find a good used tire and needed to buy 2 tires to keep rotational speeds in the right range on a FWD car.

In either case, my life would have been easier, though not necessarily cheaper if I had had a full sized tire.

Remember, the cost to do a new matching tire and wheel is in the $450 to $600 range. The cost to not do it is in the $0 to $100 range. So even if you destroy one tire with every set, the math is quesitonable.

And then you need to buy another new $250-$300 tire to replace the spare.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I think in this thread alone, plenty of valid reasons have been given. Not to mention the others on this subject. This statement seems rather disingenuous from someone of your caliber.

Sorry, I worded it incorrectly or badly.

I was referring to the reasons like spider gears and "there's no point" or "it's more expensive" or "the spare will last 10 years".
It's not usually more expensive if you keep a vehicle long enough to wear out that set of tires.

It's true that one must base it on how long they'll keep the truck/car,
if it's a Jeep do you plan on changing tire sizes within a couple of years, that sort of thing.
It can be a wash like you said, but the bit about causing wear on spider gears - that's laughable.
People need to decide based on their use and the future of the vehicle itself.
I caught you up in that mix - my bad. It was aimed at the other negatives (especially when the tire makers, tire sellers and Jeep recommend it)

 

[sharpsicle]

Sorry, I worded it incorrectly or badly.

I was referring to the reasons like spider gears and "there's no point" or "it's more expensive" or "the spare will last 10 years".
It's not usually more expensive if you keep a vehicle long enough to wear out that set of tires.

It's true that one must base it on how long they'll keep the truck/car,
if it's a Jeep do you plan on changing tire sizes within a couple of years, that sort of thing.
It can be a wash like you said, but the bit about causing wear on spider gears - that's laughable.
People need to decide based on their use and the future of the vehicle itself.
I caught you up in that mix - my bad. It was aimed at the other negatives (especially when the tire makers, tire sellers and Jeep recommend it)

100% agree. The only thing that gets more wear is the spare tire carrier

 

[FitfulGoat]

No they won't. And tire shops won't touch tires over 7 years old. The tire shops here, the legit ones, they look at the date on the sidewall and in two shops they saw a date of just over 7 years and not so politely suggested I take the tire back home.

Further - we have multiple times run into tire issues where a hazard went through the tire within 1" of the sidewall or edge of the tread - that also won't touch those! Imagine a Jeep with about 30,000 miles on it and you blow a tire and they won't fix it. There's still 20,000 left on the others and you can't get that matching tread any more. What do you do? You talk the guy into fixing it if you put it on as a spare and use the spare instead and go back to a 4 tire rotation.
I've had situations where having a matching spare that was rotated in saved me hundreds of dollars as I didn't have to go buy one tire and got by until I needed another set.
The tire companies recommend it, JEEP recommends it (it's in the owner manuals!)

There's tons of discussion on this very topic. Jeep and tire makers even recommend 5 tire rotations. The Jeep owner manual says "if so equipped" (meaning matching wheel and tire) to do a 5 tire rotation. There's several great YT videos on the reasoning.



That's a total crock of shit - unadulterated BS. There's ALWAYS movement on those gears anyway - ya think they stay totally still back there? Even on what you think is a level highway, there's movement. And the reason TO DO a 5 tire rotation is to keep all tires evenly worn.
"The guy at the tire shop" isn't trained or educated and has never been a mechanic - he sells and mounts and balances tires. That's usually it.
And if you figure the wear like I have and have posted here multiple times about this very topic - the difference in tire size when you DO a 5 tire rotation is about 2 revolutions per mile! You have more difference than that taking a curve on an entrance or exit ramp. The guy is full of it. I've been at this for 45 years including working selling and fixing tires and I've done the math.
I've also spent my life as a mechanic rebuilding and repairing things including differentials. If 2 or 3 revolutions per mile difference bothers you, you need to never take that gentle curve on the highway. I'd bet that you have that sort of a difference anyway due to what's called the rolling diameter based on PSI and weight of the truck and other factors.
I have always done a 5 tire on any vehicle I've ever owned that had a matching spare - and I bought a wheel so I could do it on this truck. The math is real - the difference is extremely small when you plug in the diameter difference and figure rotational differences.

And no it's not more expensive unless you trade vehicles every couple of years or 30,000 miles. It's a wash in the long run if you keep a vehicle longer than 1 set or 2 of tires.

Direct quote from Tire Rack -
if the vehicle's four wheels and tires on the ground match the spare wheel and tire (if non-directional and not branded "for temporary use"), they should be included in the tire rotation pattern.



But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

IF your spare wheel matches. If it doesn’t then you are looking at additional economic spend to gain the time or “20%” of added tire life. If your tires are 1500$ and you save about 20% then you are only gaining roughly 300$ in use (very rough math here) which is what it would cost to buy another matching wheel.

So your logic only applies if you take longer than 3.5 years between tires and you intend on at least going through two sets in the total time of ownership.

edit: saw your updated post.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Remember, the cost to do a new matching tire and wheel is in the $450 to $600 range. The cost to not do it is in the $0 to $100 range. So even if you destroy one tire with every set, the math is quesitonable.

Watch the videos and do the math - you get about 20% more life doing 5.
In the end that could SAVE you money, especially if you trade at the right time.
If a set of tires would go 40,000 miles, adding that 20% gets you another 8,000 miles before you need tires again. For us more than once it has meant we could get into our trade mileage.
Imagine going 96,000 miles instead of 80,000 miles on 2 sets of tires, or having one deemed unrepairable. The math works.

The only thing that gets more wear is the spare tire carrie

Thank you! You gave another good reason - exercise that device every few thou or at 40 thou find it won't let the spare down because it's froze up! Or that there's a problem with the spare because you don't bother to let it down every so often and check it out. Get out into central KS or NE and have a flat and find - oops, spare won't let down, then when you cut the cable to get it down you find there's a problem with the spare -
So - either you rotate it in every so often or take the time to let it down, make sure the spare still looks good, the carrier still works fine (and check the air in the spare)

 

[Blackjeepjk]

No they won't. And tire shops won't touch tires over 7 years old. The tire shops here, the legit ones, they look at the date on the sidewall and in two shops they saw a date of just over 7 years and not so politely suggested I take the tire back home.

Further - we have multiple times run into tire issues where a hazard went through the tire within 1" of the sidewall or edge of the tread - that also won't touch those! Imagine a Jeep with about 30,000 miles on it and you blow a tire and they won't fix it. There's still 20,000 left on the others and you can't get that matching tread any more. What do you do? You talk the guy into fixing it if you put it on as a spare and use the spare instead and go back to a 4 tire rotation.
I've had situations where having a matching spare that was rotated in saved me hundreds of dollars as I didn't have to go buy one tire and got by until I needed another set.
The tire companies recommend it, JEEP recommends it (it's in the owner manuals!)

There's tons of discussion on this very topic. Jeep and tire makers even recommend 5 tire rotations. The Jeep owner manual says "if so equipped" (meaning matching wheel and tire) to do a 5 tire rotation. There's several great YT videos on the reasoning.



That's a total crock of shit - unadulterated BS. There's ALWAYS movement on those gears anyway - ya think they stay totally still back there? Even on what you think is a level highway, there's movement. And the reason TO DO a 5 tire rotation is to keep all tires evenly worn.
"The guy at the tire shop" isn't trained or educated and has never been a mechanic - he sells and mounts and balances tires. That's usually it.
And if you figure the wear like I have and have posted here multiple times about this very topic - the difference in tire size when you DO a 5 tire rotation is about 2 revolutions per mile! You have more difference than that taking a curve on an entrance or exit ramp. The guy is full of it. I've been at this for 45 years including working selling and fixing tires and I've done the math.
I've also spent my life as a mechanic rebuilding and repairing things including differentials. If 2 or 3 revolutions per mile difference bothers you, you need to never take that gentle curve on the highway. I'd bet that you have that sort of a difference anyway due to what's called the rolling diameter based on PSI and weight of the truck and other factors.
I have always done a 5 tire on any vehicle I've ever owned that had a matching spare - and I bought a wheel so I could do it on this truck. The math is real - the difference is extremely small when you plug in the diameter difference and figure rotational differences.

And no it's not more expensive unless you trade vehicles every couple of years or 30,000 miles. It's a wash in the long run if you keep a vehicle longer than 1 set or 2 of tires.

Direct quote from Tire Rack -
if the vehicle's four wheels and tires on the ground match the spare wheel and tire (if non-directional and not branded "for temporary use"), they should be included in the tire rotation pattern.




But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

i have a coworker with new lifted Chevy truck with aftermarket wheels and 37” tires. Accident involving hitting deer and large rock in ditch. Everything good except busted 1 wheel and tire. He is unable to get replacement wheel and had to order new set. Oh new set he ordered 5! Fool me once.

 

[FitfulGoat]

i have a coworker with new lifted Chevy truck with aftermarket wheels and 37” tires. Accident involving hitting deer and large rock in ditch. Everything good except busted 1 wheel and tire. He is unable to get replacement wheel and had to order new set. Oh new set he ordered 5! Fool me once.

Along the same logic though, to be safe and for proper use you would have had to replace the spare once it takes the place of the damaged unit on the truck. The only other option other then to go without a spare (which is not worth the risk) is to end up in the same situation where you have a mismatched spare and it can no longer be used in a 5 tire rotation.

In other words the only thing that’s taking place here is possibly prolonging the financial burden at the risk of safety.

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