New JT Gladiator Steering Issue TSB 08-074-20 (for "Improved Steering Feel")

[JRWFarm]

So I'm new to solid axles, and just got a 2020 JT with 17k that wanders all over. I dropped it off for the TSB and recall for the misfires, and the dealer said it needs an alignment first, then they are ordering the steering box and will replace that... Is that right? Coming from IFS, seems it would be the other way around, tie rods, UCAs etc, all that, and THEN an alignment, am I wrong? Just don't want to get swindled here and hoping my first experience at this dealer is a good one.

Are they trying to get out of replacing the steering box and hoping an alignment will satisfy you? I agree with you that mechanical parts need to be replaced first and then do the alignment. If the steering box has not been replaced then insist on the newer design per the TSB.

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[Hootbro]

So I'm new to solid axles, and just got a 2020 JT with 17k that wanders all over. I dropped it off for the TSB and recall for the misfires, and the dealer said it needs an alignment first, then they are ordering the steering box and will replace that... Is that right? Coming from IFS, seems it would be the other way around, tie rods, UCAs etc, all that, and THEN an alignment, am I wrong? Just don't want to get swindled here and hoping my first experience at this dealer is a good one.

Is the alignment first out of your pocket? If so, I would tell them to stuff it and follow the letter of the TSB and get your parts ordered, installed and alignment done afterwards per the TSB and under warranty.

What was the original in service date on your 2020 Gladiator? Early 2019 build 2020 model year Gladiators will be reaching the 3 year mark here shortly on the bumper to bumper dropping off by age.

 

[tysongladiator]

I saw his vid a few months ago and agree, his video was extremely well done, but then no surprise, his posts are usually very well done.



Loose - and you have a 2020? Maybe I should go check the ball joints and pitman nut on mine. Ball joints are original but my steering gear has been replaced twice.

@ShadowsPapa I appreciate that!

You know, I love our Jeeps, but above all I am an offroad enthusiast. All of the videos on my youtube channel, whether is about a product, tech issue, or a trail are to help people. Last week, I posted in a few facebook forums. All I said was that, "I noticed a lot of repeated questions and that if anybody has any issues, go to my youtube channel and see if it's been covered before." Well...... I was accused by a lot of people of self promoting. They said I was trying to get views and subsribers. So, the admins of a few groups took my post down.

I had to explain to people that I do not care about subscribers. Which is why I didn't ask anybody to subscribe or view anything. I just said scroll through the vidoes and see if anything interests you. I'm retired military. I'm not a big youtube/social media celebrity, I don't get paid. In the beginning I asked for subscribers, but I stopped. I had to remind myself why I started the channel. To help people! So, I don't ask for subscribes or views.

My goal is to spread positivity, help people, and create an atmosphere where we can learn from each other! And when I interact with folks like you, that's lets me know that everything is all good. I'm not an expert at anything and neither is anyone else, but we can all get better at the things we do by helping each other.

I know that was long, but I appreciate ya my friend!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My guess is that the mechanics didn't know the correct torque procedure. I'll explain. As you know, in older vehicles, the pitman arm nut was like the balljoint nuts, it was a castle nut with a cotter pin.

Whew - how far back are you going? Even in the 1960s, it was either a lock nut, or a nut and lock washer, and was to be staked in place, no cotter pin, no castellated nut.
I had to go back to 1963, a cylinder-type power steering gear to find any sign of a castellated nut and cotter pin............

These are from 67 and later - note the plain nut, lock washer and the mention of staking to retain the nut in place (in other words, even if it came loose, it could not move due to the staked and thus distorted thread on the pitman shaft)
And note the torque spec for pitman nuts in that era........That ain't tight by today's specs but then you needed a very heavy-duty pitman puller in those days to get the pitman arm off the shaft due to the way they wedged on.

Anyway, I was just curious as to the last time you actually saw a pitman shaft that was drilled for a cotter pin and a castellated nut to retain the pitman nut. I didn't think you were that old, but then, maybe your hobby is classics and antiques?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

So I'm new to solid axles, and just got a 2020 JT with 17k that wanders all over. I dropped it off for the TSB and recall for the misfires, and the dealer said it needs an alignment first, then they are ordering the steering box and will replace that... Is that right? Coming from IFS, seems it would be the other way around, tie rods, UCAs etc, all that, and THEN an alignment, am I wrong? Just don't want to get swindled here and hoping my first experience at this dealer is a good one.

Solid axle - no matter at all, same stuff as IFS but you can't adjust camber and caster on these without a parts swap. All other stuff applies to either.

The TSB INCLUDES alignment so tell them GEAR FIRST, follow the bloody TSB which includes an alignment. They don't need to do any alignment first to do the TSB nor do they need to align it for any other work.
Steering gear TSB - FIRST, that includes alignment on Jeep's dime. Show them the part about where "if customer complains, fix it" (well, it's not those words, but pretty close) on that TSB. If you complain they are to fix it. IF you have modified it with a lift, different wheels, that sort of thing, that throw it out of spec, that's another matter.
Because the TSB does say "as long as it is within alignment specs" (or can be in specs) they are to do the TSB. Some will go in with different wheel widths, a 4" lift and other stuff that totally changes the dynamics and angles and then blame Jeep for their lack of knowledge on how things work.

 

[tysongladiator]

Whew - how far back are you going? Even in the 1960s, it was either a lock nut, or a nut and lock washer, and was to be staked in place, no cotter pin, no castellated nut.
I had to go back to 1963, a cylinder-type power steering gear to find any sign of a castellated nut and cotter pin............

These are from 67 and later - note the plain nut, lock washer and the mention of staking to retain the nut in place (in other words, even if it came loose, it could not move due to the staked and thus distorted thread on the pitman shaft)
And note the torque spec for pitman nuts in that era........That ain't tight by today's specs but then you needed a very heavy-duty pitman puller in those days to get the pitman arm off the shaft due to the way they wedged on.

Anyway, I was just curious as to the last time you actually saw a pitman shaft that was drilled for a cotter pin and a castellated nut to retain the pitman nut. I didn't think you were that old, but then, maybe your hobby is classics and antiques?

Actually you would be correct again. I used to work at a shop that built race cars and classic cars. And I mostly worked on, (you guessed it), the suspension. Hahaha! Actually, my uncle has a 67 Camaro that he's working on that I give him a hand with whenever I go home.

Yea. It's been a long time since castle nuts. But, I only used that as an example to show that as vehicles update with parts and procedures, the mechanics need to update their knowledge as well. You know as well as I do that some of these dealerships aren't following directions. When I got out of high school, I went to school for HVAC. Our instructor (over 35 yrs of experience) said to us, "I don't care how much you know or think you know, always read the directions!"

And oh yea. I remember , back in the day, riding around and calling friends on the HOUSE PHONE, to see if someone had a pitman arm puller. Getting that A/C clutch or PS pulley off was no joke either. Hahaha! But, yes. 115 ft/lbs isn't that tight, but the methods used back then worked. Throw a lock washer and retaining ring on there and you were good to go. Lol

I was gonna say that looking at the pic you attached brings back memories, but let me correct myself. Looking at that pic brings back nightmares!!! Hahaha!

 

[545moose]

Is the alignment first out of your pocket? If so, I would tell them to stuff it and follow the letter of the TSB and get your parts ordered, installed and alignment done afterwards per the TSB and under warranty.

What was the original in service date on your 2020 Gladiator? Early 2019 build 2020 model year Gladiators will be reaching the 3 year mark here shortly on the bumper to bumper dropping off by age.

Thanks for confirming that! I called them back and said hold up, replace per the TSB with the new design and then see, and if it should need an alignment, which I assume so after R&R the steering box, then align it; but that should be included in the warranty work right!? I'm not giving away $150 for the hell of it. Parts coming in on Monday, so that's a good thing. My in service date was 2020, so I'm good to go for about 15mo. and plan to add MaxCare between now and then too.

 

[545moose]

Solid axle - no matter at all, same stuff as IFS but you can't adjust camber and caster on these without a parts swap. All other stuff applies to either.

The TSB INCLUDES alignment so tell them GEAR FIRST, follow the bloody TSB which includes an alignment. They don't need to do any alignment first to do the TSB nor do they need to align it for any other work.
Steering gear TSB - FIRST, that includes alignment on Jeep's dime. Show them the part about where "if customer complains, fix it" (well, it's not those words, but pretty close) on that TSB. If you complain they are to fix it. IF you have modified it with a lift, different wheels, that sort of thing, that throw it out of spec, that's another matter.
Because the TSB does say "as long as it is within alignment specs" (or can be in specs) they are to do the TSB. Some will go in with different wheel widths, a 4" lift and other stuff that totally changes the dynamics and angles and then blame Jeep for their lack of knowledge on how things work.

Yeah it's got the Fox/Jeep suspension on it now, and different wheels not factory, but that's just how it sat when I bought it. and I'll be sure to clarify the alignment part on Monday, not paying for it if it should be included; they claimed because the steering wheel wasn't straight... just stop. I'm not a mechanic by any stretch, but don't try to BS me like I drove in a Caravan either, flat out criminal.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

When I got out of high school, I went to school for HVAC. Our instructor (over 35 yrs of experience) said to us, "I don't care how much you know or think you know, always read the directions!"

Wow, was his name Ollie? Sounds so much like my engine instructor.
He also said "knowing what you don't know is just as important as knowing what you know" and if you were taking a test and didn't know the correct answer, he'd give partial credit if you could tell him where you'd look to find the answer. I'd bet our experiences are really similar in many ways.

I pulled out a TSM (Technical Service Manual) from 1963 and found the castellated nut and cotter pin bit on the power steering cylinder (very different setup back then) as I couldn't remember seeing that off the top of my head - but it's been a while since I've worked on something prior to about 1968. By then things were starting to change.
If you've worked on a 67 Camaro, then you are fairly familiar with the steering on the 1960s and 70s AMCs - one reason I could get a new PS steering gear for my 82 was because it was also used by GM/Chevrolet.

 

[seven30]

Steering box from 1962 gm coach:

 

[Scrubb84]

Steering box from 1962 gm coach:

I bet that box has less play in it than these brand new garbage boxes from mopar

 

[seven30]

So that coach had manual steering! The power steering update sure doesnt have any play:

 

[DaveL]

Thanks for confirming that! I called them back and said hold up, replace per the TSB with the new design and then see, and if it should need an alignment, which I assume so after R&R the steering box, then align it; but that should be included in the warranty work right!? I'm not giving away $150 for the hell of it. Parts coming in on Monday, so that's a good thing. My in service date was 2020, so I'm good to go for about 15mo. and plan to add MaxCare between now and then too.

They should follow the TSB.
I don't have it in front of me.

Vague memory--because my steering gear was already replaced--on my 2019 Wrangler JLU in the more recent TSB an alignment was included. and something else, can't remember.

It's important to read the TSB, print it and take it to the shop. Mine was highlighted and signed, and I declared I had the symptoms described in the TSB.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

 

[DaveL]

My JLU was a 2019. I had the steering gear replaced using the first TSB, soon after it came out.

Wasn't perfect. I've followed all the issues since. Figured I would let it be as it was. I hurd "It's a Jeep Thing" a whole bunch of times. The first TSB came out about while the JLU was under warranty. Needed @JeepCares to get it done.

First day of ownership I took it back. Said adjust the steering box. They did the test drive and said it's a Jeep Thing. It took about a year and a half to get to where it was safe to drive.

I was adjusting Pitman boxes about '72 in Volvos. I was a brave baby mechanical engineer. Great respect for techs when they're allowed to work the right way and know how. I've worked in machine shops....so the respect was genuine.

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