New JT Gladiator Steering Issue TSB 08-074-20 (for "Improved Steering Feel")

[seven30]

We're talking steering gear causing wander, "looseness" or pull. Not death wobble or anything related.
The steering gear was not replaced due to that, it was due to the other symptoms.
They are indeed problematic. don't know where you are coming up with that.

mitigate rollover tendency?
How would they do that with steering gear? That's not where rollovers come from.
And then why would the replacements take care of the looseness, wander and pull (at least in most cases)
There's nothing they can do with a steering gear to "mitigate" rollover. That's a different animal. And handled by other parts.

Steering gear was indeed problematic, nothing to do with "engineering for rollover" whatever.
DW has zip to do with those steering gear. Death wobble goes back decades, it's not new and the steering gear has literally nothing to do with it. Loose steering can exacerbate it, but it's not the cause.

Good lord sorry to poke the hornets nest.
We need to dissect a few aluminum boxes to see if its defective or bad design but thats not likely to happen in he short term.

So this is just a theory no more.
Chrysler knows how to make tight steering boxes. Go drive a WJ if your not sure.
So whats the deal with the JT boxes. Im just not buying the poor build quality line until I have something better than anecdotal evidence but something IS wrong with them in a general sense.

The fast steering and high center of gravity of the earlier XJ can very easily take an inexperienced (or tired) driver by surprise if they drop the tire off a sharp shoulder at highway speed. Ive experienced that as a passenger and its a real thing.

Then DaimlerChrysler made a clear change to the XJ box for 2000/2001 being slower and stiffer.
Why do that? Why in the last two years not only change it but make it clunky. Im thinking got to be the legal department maybe part of some settlement.

So I just wonder if the JT box engineers got some unwanted direction from the legal department and the crappy box was the result.

Does this sound that far fetched?

Take a look at this video with camera attached to frame. Skip to the 3 minute mark where it starts to shake/wobble. Note the draglink shifting. I would assume the pitman arm is moving with it.


Edit: Is the brake backing plate moving in relation to the steering knuckle??

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[NC_Overland]

Good lord sorry to poke the hornets nest.
We need to dissect a few aluminum boxes to see if its defective or bad design but thats not likely to happen in he short term.

So this is just a theory no more.
Chrysler knows how to make tight steering boxes. Go drive a WJ if your not sure.
So whats the deal with the JT boxes. Im just not buying the poor build quality line until I have something better than anecdotal evidence but something IS wrong with them in a general sense.

The fast steering and high center of gravity of the earlier XJ can very easily take an inexperienced (or tired) driver by surprise if they drop the tire off a sharp shoulder at highway speed. Ive experienced that as a passenger and its a real thing.

Then DaimlerChrysler made a clear change to the XJ box for 2000/2001 being slower and stiffer.
Why do that? Why in the last two years not only change it but make it clunky. Im thinking got to be the legal department maybe part of some settlement.

So I just wonder if the JT box engineers got some unwanted direction from the legal department and the crappy box was the result.

Does this sound that far fetched?

I understand your logic, but I think it’s more down to manufacturers obsessed with lowering weight to gain any mpg they can. MPG is a huge challenge for manufacturers. Aerodynamics are huge too. Our Jeeps don’t look very aerodynamic, but take your top off on the hwy or even remove the freedom panels. You lose a solid 4 mpg at 75 mph.

You ever wonder why the factory specs your tire PSI so high? Increased mpg at the sacrifice of ride, handling, steering feel, and tire wear.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yeah it sounds far-fetched. The JT steering gear is a very different ratio than the Wrangler steering gear. Longer wheel base, different ratio. The change to the JT steering gear was to mitigate wander, pull, play in steering. The steel housed gear has the same ratio as the original.

Different ratios for different wheelbases, or for performance vs. highway and so on. It's not about how the steering gear is made, it's about ratio. To change how quickly is steers is a matter of the ratio. Some even have variable ratio - one ratio at the beginning of turning, another for sharper turns. It's not box construction, it's ratio. And Wrangler and Gladiator have different ratios.

So, if they were told "we have a problem with the quick steering" all they had to do was change the internal ratio............ no other design changes at all. Ratio. That's it.

Chrysler knows how to make tight steering boxes. Go drive a WJ if your not sure.

I've driven multiple WJs, ZJs and others, I've owned several. I sold my last WJ with 128,000 miles on it just last spring. But I'd not compare - the ZJ and WJ are very different from Wrangler and Gladiator - center of gravity, weight, wheelbase, and more.
Those ZJs and WJs were also pure hydraulic engine driven pumps. Not EHPS like the JT.

I've done steering and suspension for years, nothing new to me, nor an I new to Jeeps or trucks, or long vs. short cars. I can tell you this- after driving my truck or my Javelin, getting into my short as hell wheelbase SX4 is like driving 101 all over again. What a huge difference in ratio and length of the car and thus, how it handles. But I don't blame AMC........... it's a damn short car.
My wife's WK2, wow, watch out! Where my truck I turn the wheel 3 or 4 inches and it moves gently where I want it to go, do the same on that rack and pinion steering in the Grand Cherokee and you will flip the thing. Really fast ratio in the WK2 compared to the JT, IMO. Your hand quivers at all driving her Jeep and it's all over the place - not because the steering is loose, but because it's fast and tight. Drop a wheel off the edge of the pavement and react as if you are in my truck and you will lose it.

 

[seven30]

Yeah it sounds far-fetched. The JT steering gear is a very different ratio than the Wrangler steering gear. Longer wheel base, different ratio. The change to the JT steering gear was to mitigate wander, pull, play in steering. The steel housed gear has the same ratio as the original.

Different ratios for different wheelbases, or for performance vs. highway and so on. It's not about how the steering gear is made, it's about ratio. To change how quickly is steers is a matter of the ratio. Some even have variable ratio - one ratio at the beginning of turning, another for sharper turns. It's not box construction, it's ratio. And Wrangler and Gladiator have different ratios.

So, if they were told "we have a problem with the quick steering" all they had to do was change the internal ratio............ no other design changes at all. Ratio. That's it.



I've driven multiple WJs, ZJs and others, I've owned several. I sold my last WJ with 128,000 miles on it just last spring. But I'd not compare - the ZJ and WJ are very different from Wrangler and Gladiator - center of gravity, weight, wheelbase, and more.
Those ZJs and WJs were also pure hydraulic engine driven pumps. Not EHPS like the JT.

I've done steering and suspension for years, nothing new to me, nor an I new to Jeeps or trucks, or long vs. short cars. I can tell you this- after driving my truck or my Javelin, getting into my short as hell wheelbase SX4 is like driving 101 all over again. What a huge difference in ratio and length of the car and thus, how it handles. But I don't blame AMC........... it's a damn short car.
My wife's WK2, wow, watch out! Where my truck I turn the wheel 3 or 4 inches and it moves gently where I want it to go, do the same on that rack and pinion steering in the Grand Cherokee and you will flip the thing. Really fast ratio in the WK2 compared to the JT, IMO. Your hand quivers at all driving her Jeep and it's all over the place - not because the steering is loose, but because it's fast and tight. Drop a wheel off the edge of the pavement and react as if you are in my truck and you will lose it.

So did Chrysler forget how to make a steering box with the JT or have insane quality issues or what?
Ive test driven the aluminum box from the lot. Reminds me a whole lot of the late XJ steering: slower and heavier and not as precise. All at the same time!

 

[NC_Overland]

So did Chrysler forget how to make a steering box with the JT or have insane quality issues or what?
Ive test driven the aluminum box from the lot. Reminds me a whole lot of the late XJ steering: slower and heavier and not as precise. All at the same time!

Hah. My ‘96 XJ had tighter steering than my JT with the original steering box did

 

[DobaMark]

So did Chrysler forget how to make a steering box with the JT or have insane quality issues or what?
Ive test driven the aluminum box from the lot. Reminds me a whole lot of the late XJ steering: slower and heavier and not as precise. All at the same time!

They aren't making them,. They are buying them. So there are probably at least two factors that come into play under FCA's tenure:
1) Loss of experienced engineers. Started under DCX but continued under FCA. Why pay more for experience when they can find cheaper replacements? The inexperienced developers may have improperly speced the steering box, placing higher priorities on cost reduction and weight reduction than they should have.
2) FCA leaned on suppoliers hard because Sergio thought suppliers were making too much profit. SO do you expect the best quality products when you treat suppliers like crap?
FCA only seemed to care about reducing current costs with no mind for the fact that cutting costs on vehicle assembly could lead to higher warranty costs down the road.

 

[NC_Overland]

They aren't making them,. They are buying them. So there are probably at least two factors that come into play under FCA's tenure:
1) Loss of experienced engineers. Started under DCX but continued under FCA. Why pay more for experience when they can find cheaper replacements? The inexperienced developers may have improperly speced the steering box, placing higher priorities on cost reduction and weight reduction than they should have.
2) FCA leaned on suppoliers hard because Sergio thought suppliers were making too much profit. SO do you expect the best quality products when you treat suppliers like crap?
FCA only seemed to care about reducing current costs with no mind for the fact that cutting costs on vehicle assembly could lead to higher warranty costs down the road.

Sergio died in 2018.

 

[DobaMark]

Sergio died in 2018.

Yes, and he started the cost reductions push on suppliers that would have been in place when the JL and JT steering boxes were being spec'ed out by FCA and sent to suppliers for bids and production. Just because Sergio passed away doesn't mean FCA changed how they treated suppliers.

 

[Hootbro]

I suspect when the JL/JT were under development and running pre-production vehicle test mules, this probably was not an issue since parts were a low rate one offs that had the quality control.

Add ramping up to something like 200K+ vehicle production a year, the steering gearbox vendor and the quality went to shit.

 

[DaveL]

And that is so stupid, because this particular TSB says if customer complains of any from this list of woes, fix it this way. It's not open-ended, it's not up for discussion, it's "if they complain, this is what you should do".
Not all are worded that way, some are "follow normal troubleshooting procedures, etc. etc." but this one is pretty specific. Amazing the number of people working on Jeeps that don't understand, well, I was going to say Jeeps, but I think I'll say "don't understand vehicles" instead. Maybe they should be detailing cars instead. Naw, some of them would screw that up, too.

I'd bet there's a dealership somewhere that would either do it, or split or make some arrangements. They aren't all butt-heads.

I'm Canadian. I'm grateful that @JeepCares referred me to FCA Jeep Canada Customer Care.

The rep there explained the routine was different here, in spite of what it said on the TSB. We had a long talk. He learned I was serious about getting the work done. He became very helpful when I assured him that the Jeep Wrangler we had was unsafe, and I wouldn't drive it on "Burlington SkyWay" in a cross wind.

He explained the routine to me. And made it happen.
I informed him how terrible the selling dealer was. He recommended another who proved to be so helpful!
First, I had to make an appointment for inspection at that dealer.
Second, the SERVICE MANAGER there had to agree that the work was necessary. If the S.Mgr didn't agree the work would not be done.
Third, I delivered the vehicle on the day that the work was to be done. The service writer knew my name, all the information about the Wrangler. And he volunteered he knew i wouldn't drive it on the Burlington Skyway!
After the inspection the FCA Canada Customer Care rep called me...said the work would be done.

That dealership was absolute gold. The work was done to our satisfaction. By the time we were done, over a year had gone by. And we had heard, "It's a Jeep Thing!" 5-10 times.

I gave a copy of the TSB to the first dealer that had failed to do the work before they inspected it. I highlighted the instructions. I put the symptoms in, and signed the service order. In spite of that they refused to do the work. After they refused to do the work, I printed largely. "WORK WAS NOT DONE> JEEP WRANGLER IS UNSAFE"

 

[nyyankees]

Dropped my 2020 Rubicon off today. Service advisor said they do a software update first to see if that fixes the wandering. I gave him the TSB number and said I believe the update is after the steering box is replaced. He noted the TSB number. Anxious to see what happens here. I had a 2020 Overland that I traded a year ago. Part of the reason I traded it was because it wandered really bad and over the course of a year I was continually told that the steering box was on backorder. In fact I never heard back from the dealer about it coming in after multiple calls over the course of months. That coupled with the high trade value led me to just trade it. Fast forward a year and now I have a used Rubicon, low mileage and figure I better get this taken care of while its still under warranty.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Dropped my 2020 Rubicon off today. Service advisor said they do a software update first to see if that fixes the wandering. I gave him the TSB number and said I believe the update is after the steering box is replaced. He noted the TSB number. Anxious to see what happens here. I had a 2020 Overland that I traded a year ago. Part of the reason I traded it was because it wandered really bad and over the course of a year I was continually told that the steering box was on backorder. In fact I never heard back from the dealer about it coming in after multiple calls over the course of month. That coupled with the high trade value led me to just trade it. Fast forward a year and now I have a used Rubicon, low mileage and figure I better get this taken care of while its still under warranty.

Yes, you are correct. The software update is done after the steering gear is replaced as the software has to match the gear that's in the truck. If they update the software there'd be a mis-match. The TSB is very specific - if the customer complains of A, B or C or any combination, DO THIS. It doesn't say "try this first" (it does say to check for codes........... as there can be other errors)
The steering gear wasn't really that hard to get most of the time - I think the dealer shop was just stalling or something.
I'm taking my 2020 Overland to the dealer tomorrow to pick up my 2022 Overland. I'm hoping the new one steers, drives and handles as well as my 2020 did as that 20 was a dream to drive. Long drives were easy, not tiring, not stressful. It handled and drove beautifully (after the 2nd steering gear replacement). Hoping the new one does.
Interesting note that I took mine in, told them my thoughts, and said "you decide". Wasn't long they called and said "we need to replace your steering gear".
Then the second one went really nasty, wandered even worse - I took it in and said I think this one is worse than the first - the tech drove it around and came out and said "we need to replace your steering gear". There was no push-back, no hesitation, no balking, no arguing. It was "we need to replace............." both times. They told ME they needed to replace it. (of course I did hand them the TSB)

 

[5chema]

The TSB is very specific - if the customer complains of A, B or C or any combination, DO THIS.
[…]
Then the second one went really nasty, wandered even worse - I took it in and said I think this one is worse than the first.

The latest versions or the TSB were more and more specifics about the steps and parts required. Because of the different wheelbase of JL, JLU and Gladiator, each one requires a different steering box. And I heard that some Jeep Gladiator got Wrangler boxes by error when the first TSB were applied.

 

[nyyankees]

Thanks for the info. I'll let you know where I net out! I have a long drive (12 hours round trip this weekend) so Ill have a chance to see how whatever they do goes.

 

[DobaMark]

In early 2021 I had troubles getting a steering box. After waiting several weeks, I got Jeep Cares involved and my steering box showed up the next day. Since then, I bought a used Wrangler and there was no waiting in summer of 2022. Same for a couple of friends with Wranglers. The boxes were in the warehouse waiting on the dealer to order now. Seems like supply caught up with demand some time back,,

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