2022 AEV Gladiator Rubicon build

[chorky]

OK, my take-away from reading this is I need to back up a step and take a new/harder look at the primary lithium batter thing.
I do know lithium batteries somewhat (Owned a Tesla fast car) but not to the extent I need to, apparently

I did buy into the anti-gravity thing where they claim their batteries can completely replace the factory battery.
And
This
is
what I like about posting.
You get to engage the brains of the smart guys
and
save yourself a bunch of heartache, spelled $$$$$

Yeah these forums are super helpful!!! I have learned a lot over the years by various forms and knowledgable people.

So, my suggestion, and opinions differ, but would be to do an energy budget. So I made a spreadsheet of the items I plan on utilizing, pulled up specifications of their power consumption, and then assumed how often I would have them run. So one example might be a refrigerator, that draws a maximum of 2.5 amps, but probably only runs 70% of the time on a hot day, and of course it would be on 24 hours a day. Another example might be a water pump, that maybe pulls up to 7 amps, but maybe only runs 0.005 hours a day (12 minutes) to assume a short shower, washing dishes, and filling water bottles. Then you can calculate how many estimated ah you need will consume in a 24 hour period.

From there, you can factor things like, how long will you stay at one spot, or do you also have a solar panel or two, or do you wake up and drive 6 hours each day to a new destination, etc.... Once all those calculations are estimated then you have a final number of what capacity you need. At that point, you can realistically look at batteries after having a foundation built - it is still a guesstimate, but a guesstimate based on factual specifications and assumed run times and calculations.

The whole thing with the antigravity batteries as a direct replacement is not gong to work because of the charging profiles. I specifically asked antigravity that question, as they state their batteries have internal BMS (battery management systems). However, they told me those BMS's are really designed to prevent over-drawing current, so draining the battery too low. That does nothing for the specific charging profile that lithium needs which is different than AGM. There is also the high draw restrictions of lithium already mentioned. And cold weather is a big one (for me anyway). lithium does NOT like to be charged when below freezing. Some batteries have internal battery heaters, but that also causes the battery to drain itself as it heats itself. So for that reason I dont think lithium is viable (currently) as a replacement. But...they are a good choice for 'house' battery setup's. Maybe in the future they will make some sort of internal dc/dc charger so lithium batteries can accept AGM style charging (doubtful) but even then, lithium batteries run at different voltages. I learned on this site that the PCM and other modules monitor battery voltages - so if you have a different battery type with different voltage levels that could (emphasis on could) cause certain modules to become unhappy. Although the only way to truly know is for a guanine pig to just try it lol.

Expeditionportal.com also has a ton of really great knowledge as a lot of the big trucks (earth roamers) and people with extravagant electrical systems frequent that site so it might be worth exploring as well.

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[Flyin6]

Yeah these forums are super helpful!!! I have learned a lot over the years by various forms and knowledgable people.

So, my suggestion, and opinions differ, but would be to do an energy budget. So I made a spreadsheet of the items I plan on utilizing, pulled up specifications of their power consumption, and then assumed how often I would have them run. So one example might be a refrigerator, that draws a maximum of 2.5 amps, but probably only runs 70% of the time on a hot day, and of course it would be on 24 hours a day. Another example might be a water pump, that maybe pulls up to 7 amps, but maybe only runs 0.005 hours a day (12 minutes) to assume a short shower, washing dishes, and filling water bottles. Then you can calculate how many estimated ah you need will consume in a 24 hour period.

From there, you can factor things like, how long will you stay at one spot, or do you also have a solar panel or two, or do you wake up and drive 6 hours each day to a new destination, etc.... Once all those calculations are estimated then you have a final number of what capacity you need. At that point, you can realistically look at batteries after having a foundation built - it is still a guesstimate, but a guesstimate based on factual specifications and assumed run times and calculations.

The whole thing with the antigravity batteries as a direct replacement is not gong to work because of the charging profiles. I specifically asked antigravity that question, as they state their batteries have internal BMS (battery management systems). However, they told me those BMS's are really designed to prevent over-drawing current, so draining the battery too low. That does nothing for the specific charging profile that lithium needs which is different than AGM. There is also the high draw restrictions of lithium already mentioned. And cold weather is a big one (for me anyway). lithium does NOT like to be charged when below freezing. Some batteries have internal battery heaters, but that also causes the battery to drain itself as it heats itself. So for that reason I dont think lithium is viable (currently) as a replacement. But...they are a good choice for 'house' battery setup's. Maybe in the future they will make some sort of internal dc/dc charger so lithium batteries can accept AGM style charging (doubtful) but even then, lithium batteries run at different voltages. I learned on this site that the PCM and other modules monitor battery voltages - so if you have a different battery type with different voltage levels that could (emphasis on could) cause certain modules to become unhappy. Although the only way to truly know is for a guanine pig to just try it lol.

Expeditionportal.com also has a ton of really great knowledge as a lot of the big trucks (earth roamers) and people with extravagant electrical systems frequent that site so it might be worth exploring as well.

Great explanation right here. I already knew quite a bit of what you said but did not key in enough on the difference in the charging profiles. I thought the Anti-gravity folks had solved all those mysteries and were selling genuine replacement lithium. The low temp charging phenomenon is oh so true. Again, as a past owner of a Tesla, I learned the batteries (As well as the car) can be quite finicky. Low temps for sure no bueno, however my car had the Lithium-ion batteries and not the newer less efficient LiPO4 units. Maybe I am already, mostly there in my quest to create a 2000 lb Jeep JT! Well, haven't tried helium-filled tires yet ;-)

I think my experimentation is clearly illuminating two different doors. Behind door #1 is a big "Leave it alone" banner, whereas behind door #2 is a hefty $35K price tag and a nice exhaust note. If I didn't want to pull the adventure camper I built, I would resign myself to leaving it alone, shed a few more pounds and just like with my Kawasaki KLR650, just be the last guy toarrive at my destination. (But arrive none the less!)

Oh been on expedition for years

 

[Flyin6]

OK, so it seems that going to the Anti-gravity battery as a stand-alone may not be such a great idea after all. OK, but is there perhaps something else I can do here to lose some weight?

All gasser JTs with start/stop are equipped with the big primary and smaller buried secondary batteries. It looks as if the primary battery is used for starting the engine and the smaller battery to run the multitude of accessories.

I am wondering out loud here, but why couldn't one primary battery do all the above? If that were possible, then why would anyone want to carry around the weight of that secondary battery?

Yes, what if I reworked my JT to run off one primary battery? If I did that, I would eliminate the (stupid) start/stop tree-hugger pleasing feature altogether thereby eliminating 95% of all the start-ups. Then if I went with something like an Odessey AGM battery, it should be able to handle the occasional winching and then power some lightweight camp stuff without needing hours of recharging. Those things have a pretty healthy reserve capacity.

So what is wrong with my thinking here? What am I missing, and why did Chrysler think that carrying a big motorcycle battery and the hefty main battery was necessary?

 

[chorky]

OK, so it seems that going to the Anti-gravity battery as a stand-alone may not be such a great idea after all. OK, but is there perhaps something else I can do here to lose some weight?

All gasser JTs with start/stop are equipped with the big primary and smaller buried secondary batteries. It looks as if the primary battery is used for starting the engine and the smaller battery to run the multitude of accessories.

I am wondering out loud here, but why couldn't one primary battery do all the above? If that were possible, then why would anyone want to carry around the weight of that secondary battery?

Yes, what if I reworked my JT to run off one primary battery? If I did that, I would eliminate the (stupid) start/stop tree-hugger pleasing feature altogether thereby eliminating 95% of all the start-ups. Then if I went with something like an Odessey AGM battery, it should be able to handle the occasional winching and then power some lightweight camp stuff without needing hours of recharging. Those things have a pretty healthy reserve capacity.

So what is wrong with my thinking here? What am I missing, and why did Chrysler think that carrying a big motorcycle battery and the hefty main battery was necessary?

There is quite a few people who have done it. You can delete the aux battery. Most people remove the aux (or just disconnect the ground) and pull, I think fuse #10? to fully disable ESS. But, the genesis system that I have has you take the aux positive, and put it on the main positive - the negative is just wrapped up and left hanging. My ESS still functions, like you said, off of the main starting battery. So in theory it should work, and you could get rid of the little aux battery which is probably 10-15 pounds.

But that also depends on what year your JT is. It works for post mid 2021 models, but pre 2021 models it does not work that way. somewhere along the line there was a change to the wiring harness. Anyway, theres a lot of threads on here about that - I don't recall where they are at the moment though.

Then, you could just do a bed mounted lithium with a DC/DC charger and run all your camp goodies off of that without adding a bunch of weight. The Genesis system actually adds weight. I would suspect by removing the factory aux, and adding a lithium you would go up in weight by maybe 5-10 pounds depending on the lithium setup you chose.

 

[PJZ]

I am running the steel LOD Destroyers. Says 137lbs so a bit heavier than the aluminum sliders plus steel armor, but guessing a lot stronger. These JTs get hung up more with the long wheelbase. Its a good place to sacrifice a little weight.

Did you post up those lights for sale yet?

 

[Flyin6]

I am running the steel LOD Destroyers. Says 137lbs so a bit heavier than the aluminum sliders plus steel armor, but guessing a lot stronger. These JTs get hung up more with the long wheelbase. Its a good place to sacrifice a little weight.

Did you post up those lights for sale yet?

I think I'm staying with the aluminum. It should work for the way I drive. (Read: Always take the bypass and have fun watching the others scrape through!) Lights are up for sale, but I haven't posted those or the bumper anywhere on here for sale yet. If you're interested, just message me.

 

[Flyin6]

There is quite a few people who have done it. You can delete the aux battery. Most people remove the aux (or just disconnect the ground) and pull, I think fuse #10? to fully disable ESS. But, the genesis system that I have has you take the aux positive, and put it on the main positive - the negative is just wrapped up and left hanging. My ESS still functions, like you said, off of the main starting battery. So in theory it should work, and you could get rid of the little aux battery which is probably 10-15 pounds.

But that also depends on what year your JT is. It works for post mid 2021 models, but pre 2021 models it does not work that way. somewhere along the line there was a change to the wiring harness. Anyway, theres a lot of threads on here about that - I don't recall where they are at the moment though.

Then, you could just do a bed mounted lithium with a DC/DC charger and run all your camp goodies off of that without adding a bunch of weight. The Genesis system actually adds weight. I would suspect by removing the factory aux, and adding a lithium you would go up in weight by maybe 5-10 pounds depending on the lithium setup you chose.

I should be good, then since I am post mid-2021. I have a 2022 with the newer computer style.
Maybe I'll see if there a reply from someone who has deleted, but in the meantime get after some of the existing threads using the search option. Always intended to do that anyway, but was hoping I'd find the person who just did it and go from there.

Thanks again!

 

[smlobx]

I just found your write up. Nice!
I would also suggest not using a lithium battery as your primary. I kept mine stock and added a Redarc BCDC 1240 charge controller to a BattleBorn 100 Ah battery to run my fridge and other electronics. We’ve been out on 6 week trips without an issue. I also have a 100 Ah foldable solar panel but rarely need to use it on our trips.

 

[Flyin6]

I just found your write up. Nice!
I would also suggest not using a lithium battery as your primary. I kept mine stock and added a Redarc BCDC 1240 charge controller to a BattleBorn 100 Ah battery to run my fridge and other electronics. We’ve been out on 6 week trips without an issue. I also have a 100 Ah foldable solar panel but rarely need to use it on our trips.

Thanks for the advice. Concur with your assessment. Lines up with EVERYONE! I hadn't looked at it closely enough when I framed out the build, just knew I needed to dump a lot of weight. Thinking about what Chorky said a couple of posts back, I think I may go for a secondary battery delete, then upgrade to a really good AGM, delete the auto stop thing, then when I build out for the AluCab or GFC, or whatever, add a lithium/panel/RedArc at that time.

This year's wheeling trips are fast approaching and for the spring I'm just going to do day out/night return. Once I get better with this platform, I'll start adding to the bed to get multi-night capable.

Appreciate the input!

 

[Free2roam]

Thanks for the advice. Concur with your assessment. Lines up with EVERYONE! I hadn't looked at it closely enough when I framed out the build, just knew I needed to dump a lot of weight. Thinking about what Chorky said a couple of posts back, I think I may go for a secondary battery delete, then upgrade to a really good AGM, delete the auto stop thing, then when I build out for the AluCab or GFC, or whatever, add a lithium/panel/RedArc at that time.

This year's wheeling trips are fast approaching and for the spring I'm just going to do day out/night return. Once I get better with this platform, I'll start adding to the bed to get multi-night capable.

Appreciate the input!

You don't have any camper as of yet? Check out OVRLND Camper for a side by side comparison. Different styles a little bit but my camper is only 250 lbs 300lbs with the awning.

 

[Flyin6]

You don't have any camper as of yet? Check out OVRLND Camper for a side by side comparison. Different styles a little bit but my camper is only 250 lbs 300lbs with the awning.

OK, I'll take a look. No decisions made, but that AluCab looks really cool to me. Started looking at the GFC2 but quickly saw it was a 3,000 mile round trip just to get one! Then yesterday I got an email from them saying they opened two locations, North Carolina and Missouri. Both are considerably closer, so...

I was wondering if you had built that thing yourself???

 

[Free2roam]

OK, I'll take a look. No decisions made, but that AluCab looks really cool to me. Started looking at the GFC2 but quickly saw it was a 3,000 mile round trip just to get one! Then yesterday I got an email from them saying they opened two locations, North Carolina and Missouri. Both are considerably closer, so...

I was wondering if you had built that thing yourself???

Have the talent and the fab skills. I was a fabricator for 30 years. Just not the facilities. Wish I did. Jay and Maggie are great to work with. Wanted certain things done they took care of it. A few others have one here. There's an OVRLND Camper build thread I started.

 

[chorky]

OK, I'll take a look. No decisions made, but that AluCab looks really cool to me. Started looking at the GFC2 but quickly saw it was a 3,000 mile round trip just to get one! Then yesterday I got an email from them saying they opened two locations, North Carolina and Missouri. Both are considerably closer, so...

I was wondering if you had built that thing yourself???

Being as you are trying to stay light - I do not advise AluCab. Well maybe their tent. the tent is light, although I dislike clamshell's personally. but the canopy camper is HEAVY! That sucker is over 400 pounds with nothing else added.

As for batteries, I suggest looking at options other than Optima - they have gone downhill a lot lately. FullRiver is a decent brand I think, there are many options these days.

Looking forward to seeing what you decide on!

 

[Flyin6]

Being as you are trying to stay light - I do not advise AluCab. Well maybe their tent. the tent is light, although I dislike clamshell's personally. but the canopy camper is HEAVY! That sucker is over 400 pounds with nothing else added.

As for batteries, I suggest looking at options other than Optima - they have gone downhill a lot lately. FullRiver is a decent brand I think, there are many options these days.

Looking forward to seeing what you decide on!

Odessey, though. Are those still great batteries? I have heard good things about them...

 

[smlobx]

If you are looking for a lightweight battery we had success with Braille AGM batteries in my Porsche race car. Be sure to get one that has the correct specs for your needs..

https://braillebattery.com/collections/racing-auto/products/b2618

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