3.6 Engine Tick

[seven30]

This thread has been an interesting read, some great discussion. Unfortunately my education went from theoretical to applied.

Tacking on my experience to this Pentatick thread. My '22 JTR (Jan. '22 build) always been a little noisy, but could only hear it with the hood open, otherwise quiet enough. After about 32k miles I started hearing the ticking/tapping noticeably while coming home from a trip, comes from the passenger side of the engine. Super easy to hear in the ~2000RPM range, I can just shift down a gear while going 25mph and really hear it. All within the last 200ish miles. Regular oil changes (5K or less depending on travel schedule), no towing, stock tires, etc. Lots of dirt miles. I DO have an AEV snorkel and have a Tazer that I unmarried and removed before bringing it in.

In my case, I took it into a new (to me) service department and they ID'd it no problem, bad lash adjuster and would replace that and the cam together (will post specific parts replaced when service happens). Great! They also keep Hemi and Pentastar parts for this specifically stock piled apparently. BUT the Service Manager said they've been having problems getting warranty approval on anything with intake or programmer mods. They used to submit text only claims and would leave off if the customer had mods, now the manufacturer requires photos and they're denying anything with air intake mods. The SM also said something about me having an electronic override device (I presume the Tazer) also being a problem, although that's surprising it's detectable with having unmarried mine... I also used a BlueDriver scanner to run some diagnostics around the ticking, perhaps that's what flagged it for them.

I'm skeptical about the snorkel being an issue, Mopar used to offer dealer installed snorkels when I bought my truck, my air filter has never stayed so clean. This dealer seems to mainly deal with Ram and not many Jeeps, so I'm hoping it's the Ram side of FCA/Stellantis, not Jeep that's giving them issues. Dealer/SM said we should hear back within 5 days if it's denied/approved....

Anyone have an issue with warranty claims on your engine with a snorkel? The AEV doesn't modify the airbox itself, it attaches to the pickup between the box and hood. I chose AEV because of their tight Jeep relationship and heavy testing they perform on their mods. I'll update as I hear more.

This is my take on this. This engine is designed and tuned for the 8spd auto. Running behind a 6sdp manual requires higher revs between shifts. That keeps the cam on high lift cam/rocker longer but its a marginal design and cannot handle it for long. Was your issue passenger or driver side?

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[montechie]

This is my take on this. This engine is designed and tuned for the 8spd auto. Running behind a 6sdp manual requires higher revs between shifts. That keeps the cam on high lift cam/rocker longer but its a marginal design and cannot handle it for long. Was your issue passenger or driver side?

Passenger side. Sorry, I probably confused people, mine is the 8spd auto, I used the manual mode on the shifter to easily reproduce the sound. My house is on a hill, probably why I noticed the tick so much, I'm often gearing down manually a bit driving downhill in my neighborhood.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

After about 32k miles I started hearing the ticking/tapping noticeably while coming home from a trip, comes from the passenger side of the engine. Super easy to hear in the ~2000RPM range, I can just shift down a gear while going 25mph and really hear it.

That's low-lift mode, where the follower is on the rollers.
The damage is always the high lift part of the cam and follower.

That's what I find interesting - people say they hear the tick, and at under 3,000 RPM and yet all cam damage is in the high lift area, above 3,000 RPM where the engine doesn't spend all that much time.
With our hills here, i spend a lot of time over 3,000 RPM, especially with any wind, while towing and so on.

Gotta spend some more time playing what-if with pictures and so on to try to see what is going on that it ticks on low lift, but destroys the high lift.

 

[montechie]

That's low-lift mode, where the follower is on the rollers.
The damage is always the high lift part of the cam and follower.

That's what I find interesting - people say they hear the tick, and at under 3,000 RPM and yet all cam damage is in the high lift area, above 3,000 RPM where the engine doesn't spend all that much time.
With our hills here, i spend a lot of time over 3,000 RPM, especially with any wind, while towing and so on.

Gotta spend some more time playing what-if with pictures and so on to try to see what is going on that it ticks on low lift, but destroys the high lift.

And in the Rockies part of Montana with our speed limits I certainly spend lots of time in 3,000-5,000. I just don't hear the tick then, but is that wind noise drowning it out or harder to hear the tick at a faster rate I couldn't say. I wouldn't be surprised if the damage is caused in high lift, you can just hear it easier when things are quieter. Maybe I should dust off the GoPro and put it under the hood for some higher RPM runs.

Another tidbit, when talking to two different indie mechanics I know that had originally started as brand service techs (GM, Ram), both said they were told by the training reps the Montana region sees more "lifter/cam" damage than other areas, even compared to other Western states. Don't know if that included Colorado, but most of our population is in or right next to the Rockies and at decent elevations (less O2 to power these engines), our speeds are 80+ in said mountainous terrain. Probably just useless speculation, I try to practice mechanical sympathy and don't drive this truck as hard when climbing, but that's still 65-70 at 7,000+ feet.

Makes me appreciate my 4.0, which is my main daily again while I get this sorted.

 

[seven30]

That's low-lift mode, where the follower is on the rollers.
The damage is always the high lift part of the cam and follower.

That's what I find interesting - people say they hear the tick, and at under 3,000 RPM and yet all cam damage is in the high lift area, above 3,000 RPM where the engine doesn't spend all that much time.
With our hills here, i spend a lot of time over 3,000 RPM, especially with any wind, while towing and so on.

Gotta spend some more time playing what-if with pictures and so on to try to see what is going on that it ticks on low lift, but destroys the high lift.

Doesnt the high lift rocker still follow the cam even when not active? If so that might be why the noise. Mine failed on the passenger side too and ticked at all rpm before repair.
I believe the rocker fulcrum relative to cam rotation swaps location between heads.

 

[Charles 236]

Yes. The high lift arm stays in contact with the cam at all engine speeds. It is locked in high lift position by a pin which is operated by oil pressure at higher RPMs.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yes. The high lift arm stays in contact with the cam at all engine speeds. It is locked in high lift position by a pin which is operated by oil pressure at higher RPMs.

Yes, by spring pressure. I'd assume that as the high lift profile wore and the high lift portion of the follower wore, there may not be enough travel to keep it in contact, thus the ticking.
That's one thing i wanted to dig into - if there was enough wear, would that piece run out of travel and periodically hit the cam instead of constantly following it - held there by the spring internal to the follower.
They do that so it's ready to be locked in place in a seamless manner - already in contact, as the pin moves, it locks it in place. There's a slight clearance between the pin and the high lift part of the follower - some lash, to allow for easy engagement.

 

[montechie]

I'm skeptical about the snorkel being an issue, Mopar used to offer dealer installed snorkels when I bought my truck, my air filter has never stayed so clean. This dealer seems to mainly deal with Ram and not many Jeeps, so I'm hoping it's the Ram side of FCA/Stellantis, not Jeep that's giving them issues. Dealer/SM said we should hear back within 5 days if it's denied/approved....

Anyone have an issue with warranty claims on your engine with a snorkel? The AEV doesn't modify the airbox itself, it attaches to the pickup between the box and hood. I chose AEV because of their tight Jeep relationship and heavy testing they perform on their mods. I'll update as I hear more.

Well, warranty work was easily approved, so no problem with the snorkel on Jeep's side. Mechanic was probably just gun shy from CAIs and DEF deletes on all the Rams they mainly work with in their area (Livingston, MT), and wanted to set my expectations. I'm scheduled for next week. My regular dealer shop wouldn't even check the truck out for 3 months.

I'll see if I can take home the old parts, or at least get some photos at the shop to share here.

 

[montechie]

I'll see if I can take home the old parts, or at least get some photos at the shop to share here.

Well, work was done yesterday, the mechanic mainly focused on the worn cam, although they replace matching parts as well that could wear or have caused the cam issue. He said it's not even obvious to them if there's a single point of failure, bad rocker, lifter, debris from something else bad, they've seen it all in the 3.6 and 5.7 Hemis.

Mine didn't have any oil contamination they saw, although I'm going to do an oil/filter change anyways. He said they have to hang onto the bad part for a few weeks for any warranty work, but cleaned it up so I could take a picture. Worn part is closest to rag:

Engine sounds so quiet now, just purrs. Never the greatest experience having a quality control issue like this but I've had no other negative experiences in the 30K miles. Totally happy with this new-to-me dealership and the quick warranty approval. Will be testing the oil down the road before my warranties run out, but I have a 7 year/100K mile extended.

 

[exsploroverland]

Yes, internet research is leaning toward rockers and lifters. The noise is louder in lower gears then goes away. I can make it tick in park, just by giving it some gas

Mine was making the same noise, I guess pretty common that #3 cylinder is the problem. they replace lifters, so far so good now.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Mine was making the same noise, I guess pretty common that #3 cylinder is the problem. they replace lifters, so far so good now.

Depending on the year, etc. - there's a TSB for a tick that is caused by bad lash adjusters (what some call lifters).
The fix - replace ALL lash adjusters on that bank.
It's not "common" that #3 is a problem, but it is common that the odd bank is "typically" the trouble with cam and followers.
Why would it be common that #3 would be the problem for lash adjusters since #3 and #5 share the same oil source for the VVL and #1 is supplied from the front for the VVL functionality. They are all otherwise oiled the same.

It's "typical" that the left or even bank is the issue if the tick is caused by the lash adjusters.

 

[JimThe4th]

Does this problem get permanently fixed with the cam/rocker replacement? i guess, is it an engine issue or a cam issue. Or do we get to fix this problem as long as we own our Gladiator?

 

[Hootbro]

Does this problem get permanently fixed with the cam/rocker replacement? i guess, is it an engine issue or a cam issue. Or do we get to fix this problem as long as we own our Gladiator?

Depends, some people have had it happen again and others sold or traded off after repair so there is really not a lot on long term data on this

 

[WK2JT]

Depends, some people have had it happen again and others sold or traded off after repair so there is really not a lot on long term data on this

And I believe there are a few that have had it replaced at least twice. However, it’s hard to tell if there are other circumstances that caused the second failure such as the work being performed incorrectly, clogged oil passage, etc. it’s frustrating not knowing the root cause. Otherwise it’s just throwing parts at it and hoping.

 

[Hootbro]

And I believe there are a few that have had it replaced at least twice. However, it’s hard to tell if there are other circumstances that caused the second failure such as the work being performed incorrectly, clogged oil passage, etc. it’s frustrating not knowing the root cause. Otherwise it’s just throwing parts at it and hoping.

That is the problem with the dealership/corporate warranty repair model. Just fix what you see and move on.

There has never been a one size fits all model addressing root cause of the Pentastar valvetrain failures. That leads me to believe there is multiple single issues that contribute but not everybody will have the same single issue as the next person. FCA I am sure has the data and knows but rather than implement meaningful corrective action that sticks, they rather play the game of attrition through warranty arbitrage.

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