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oldhp3

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Anybody running 5W30 synthetic oil???
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oldhp3

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This post was on Bob Is The Oil Guy. Thought you all would like to read it.

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.
 

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This post was on Bob Is The Oil Guy. Thought you all would like to read it.

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.
Nice! So, turn off start/stop, and the oil is a trade-off.
 

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From FCA on the updated Pentastar: "The new Pentastar uses 0W-20 oil, which helps economy and is required for the VVT and VVL systems"
 

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Newer engines these days are being build to higher tolorances. Going to a thicker viscosity will actually do more harm or stress the internals more. For those who don't understand - example, piston wall clearance being tighter to cylinder wall.

As well as some points mentioned in Bob oil guy thread.

Stepping up to a 5w20 won't hurt in warmer areas, but i would advised against 0w30 or 5w30 and higher second number. First number is cold start viscosity. Second is warmed up viscosity.
 

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This post was on Bob Is The Oil Guy. Thought you all would like to read it.

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.
In Bob The Oil Guy's post, what does "WOT" mean?
 

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Snippets from an SAE member -


Here are some comparison numbers from an 830 HP road race engine on the track:

15W50 oil = 80 psi = 265* oil sump temperature

5W20 oil = 65 psi = 240* oil sump temperature

Here you can see how the thicker oil flowed more slowly through the bearings, thus getting hotter, driving up bearing temperatures and increasing sump temperatures. And the thinner oil flowed more freely and quickly through the bearings, thus cooling and lubricating them better than thicker oil, while also reducing sump temperatures.

Here’s some additional background on all this – You might be surprised by how much heat can be generated just from an oil’s internal friction, though friction may not the best term to use here. It is probably better to think of this as the heat generated due to the shearing action taking place within the oil.

It is the shearing action of the oil between the crankshaft and bearings, while the engine is under a heavy loading condition, that generates the bearing heat that we are concerned with. The oil wedge formed as the crankshaft pulls oil in and around the clearance as it spins, is liquid oil. And since liquids cannot be compressed, the oil wedge itself is what carries that heavy engine loading (oil pressure serves only to deliver oil to the crank/bearing interface) and prevents the crankshaft and bearings from coming in contact with each other, once the engine is running. Cold start up after sitting, is when the bearings and cranksaft start out in contact with each other.

--------

If an engine is running hot, use a thinner oil to increase flow, increase internal component cooling, and help keep sump temperatures down. Keeping oil temps down is important to help keep oil below the threshold of thermal breakdown.
--------------------

Virtually any engine that calls for 5W20, can also safely use 5W30. In fact, many engines that call for 5W20 are happier, and make less mechanical noise with 5W30.

-------------------------
That's his take as an engineer.
What Jeep has done with the 3.6 isn't that different than what Mercedes did several years ago. Their cam timing, variable displacement intake manifold, all sorts of tricks, many of them handled by oil.........they use the hydraulic pressure of the pump to control hydraulic mechanisms in the engine.

I have changed to 5w30 in my other engines (and run bio-syn)
 

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This post was on Bob Is The Oil Guy. Thought you all would like to read it.

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.

Nice. I WOT mine fairly regularly and the first thing I do when I start it is turn off auto start stop.
 

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Nice. I WOT mine fairly regularly and the first thing I do when I start it is turn off auto start stop.
I can't believe how this thing seems to enjoy the high RPM. I was behind a loafer on a back road today and like I always do, got impatient, waited for a clear spot (wasn't a long one but long enough) hit the gas and holy cow, hold on to your coffee! It set me back, I went from 35 to 80 in a time a muscle car owner would be proud of.
And around here if you want to merge onto the interstate, or even exit, because we have what I call figure-8 exit ramps (those entering cross those exiting) you must be ready to nail it or get run off the road. Our exit and entrance ramps suck. You are safer at the county fair figure 8 race track.
 

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This post was on Bob Is The Oil Guy. Thought you all would like to read it.

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.
I can't believe how this thing seems to enjoy the high RPM. I was behind a loafer on a back road today and like I always do, got impatient, waited for a clear spot (wasn't a long one but long enough) hit the gas and holy cow, hold on to your coffee! It set me back, I went from 35 to 80 in a time a muscle car owner would be proud of.
And around here if you want to merge onto the interstate, or even exit, because we have what I call figure-8 exit ramps (those entering cross those exiting) you must be ready to nail it or get run off the road. Our exit and entrance ramps suck. You are safer at the county fair figure 8 race track.
it does pretty well, but the 3.6l/8 speed in my 2017 Canyon ripped in comparison. They felt about the same in normal driving, but it was a completely different animal over 4K rpm. It also had 308 hp and was roughly 400 lbs lighter so it makes sense.
 
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oldhp3

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A 830HP race engine is not going to have the same internal clearances of a street engine and most likely a dry sump oil system to specially lube certain parts of the engine. Oil that's 265° is thin enough not to drag going thru bearings, even 15W50. So to me you can't compare a race engine to a street engine. Like he says a 5W20 engine will run fine on 5W30. Will there be more heat? Maybe..... I ran 5W30 in my RAM 1500 3.6/auto and oil temp showed no difference than when it had 5W20 in it. It was quieter for sure. MPG stayed the same. IDK, I was just asking if anybody was running 5W30. Why does the Gladiator oil pressure hardly go up or down? At start up it goes high, then down to 30PSI. If I'm under 3000RPM it never gets higher then 31PSI. Over 3000RPM, BAM!!!! 70/80/90 PSI. Which I know is the 2nd stage pump coming in. But there is no change from idle to 2999RPM at all. IDK............Keep On Jeepin'
 

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A 830HP race engine is not going to have the same internal clearances of a street engine and most likely a dry sump oil system to specially lube certain parts of the engine. Oil that's 265° is thin enough not to drag going thru bearings, even 15W50. So to me you can't compare a race engine to a street engine. Like he says a 5W20 engine will run fine on 5W30. Will there be more heat? Maybe..... I ran 5W30 in my RAM 1500 3.6/auto and oil temp showed no difference than when it had 5W20 in it. It was quieter for sure. MPG stayed the same. IDK, I was just asking if anybody was running 5W30. Why does the Gladiator oil pressure hardly go up or down? At start up it goes high, then down to 30PSI. If I'm under 3000RPM it never gets higher then 31PSI. Over 3000RPM, BAM!!!! 70/80/90 PSI. Which I know is the 2nd stage pump coming in. But there is no change from idle to 2999RPM at all. IDK............Keep On Jeepin'
They likely start high to push oil up to the top end, the followers or rockers and other parts, then once there's oil there, they drop it to a much more reasonable level.
No need for more pressure especially at those speeds. - if 30 psi gets oil to all places, that's all that is needed.
They may be using the extra pressure for cam timing and other changes?????

It's the film that lubricates anyway, not the pressure. Pressure just delivers.
It takes energy to pump the oil, so they save it by keeping pressure where it's needed.
I see to many engine builders brag about having 80 psi oil pressure, then gripe when things wear or break in the pump and pump drive area. And yet in my last build I run 15-20 idle, 50-60 tops at high RPM and don't wear parts at all.
My pumps and drives look like new after 100,000 miles.
 

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I can't believe how this thing seems to enjoy the high RPM. I was behind a loafer on a back road today and like I always do, got impatient, waited for a clear spot (wasn't a long one but long enough) hit the gas and holy cow, hold on to your coffee! It set me back, I went from 35 to 80 in a time a muscle car owner would be proud of.
And around here if you want to merge onto the interstate, or even exit, because we have what I call figure-8 exit ramps (those entering cross those exiting) you must be ready to nail it or get run off the road. Our exit and entrance ramps suck. You are safer at the county fair figure 8 race track.
I have to agree, it seems to keep my Gas mileage in check if I go ahead and accelerate quickly up to speed rather than take off slow and slowly get up to speed. I've noticed it drop from 18.2-18.1 and take a little bit to get back to positive MPGs after I granny it up to speed. Getting to speed quickly, it will drop the same but will start gaining positive MPGs a lot quicker. It's crazy to me but I guess that's how they built the engine.
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