Analysis Paralysis - Lift Options

[Trep]

I went with the Mopar lift before I went with a Harker Outdoor pop up camper. Now I am contemplating going with the AEV Dual Sport as the Mopar feels like it sways side to side and very squishy. So please learn from my mistake.

Was that the Mopar with the FOX shocks or the new one with Billsteins?

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[Trep]

The part where I said if you have a plastic bumper and no winch vs having a heavy steel bumper and a winch. All Jeeps aren’t cooked the same. The same length control arms isn’t ideal for both of those situations because the ride height is different.

Another nice thing about adjustable arms is you can swap springs and change ride height and still dial in caster, pinion angles, and wheel well location. You can’t do that with fixed arms.

I'm running stock plastic now with intentions of going steel with a 10-12k pound winch after the lift. So I'd need a new alignment just by adding weight to the front end and tweaking adjustable LCAs would be part of said alignment?

 

[NotSo Bright White]

Was that the Mopar with the FOX shocks or the new one with Billsteins?

it was the OG Fox shocks. I would be really pissed if I bought that new of lift and already wanted to replace it.

 

[Free2roam]

I went with the Mopar lift before I went with a Harker Outdoor pop up camper. Now I am contemplating going with the AEV Dual Sport as the Mopar feels like it sways side to side and very squishy. So please learn from my mistake.

And I'm thinking Clayton because they actually publish their spring rates. I'll be pushing close to 700lbs if not a wee bit more fully loaded

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

I am thinking the move to Billsteins might make that, plus having a reservoir looks cool... we can all admit it adds a certain "premium" look to the lift whether it's over kill or not.

You really do want spend for good shocks more than anything. Driving on or off-road you'll never really feel the difference between any rubber bushing'd control arm. Somewhat maybe feel the difference from coil spring to coil spring. But you'll definitely notice the ride characteristics based on which shocks you have.

Another suggestion is that the brand kit is not as important as the components included.
Lifting the Jeep changes the geometry of all involved components and may or may not change ride characteristics, and that may vary from front to rear.
Take for instance track bars: I lifted my Jeep 3.5" in the front, 2.75" in the back. Even though the lift difference was only ¾", the front axle shifted significantly requiring an adjustable track bar to get it recentered. The rear axle shift was negligible, but: there was a lot of rear end sway over bumps because the rear axle is more sensitive to sway bar angle, which required a track bar relocation bracket to use with the factory track bar in order to bring the ride characteristic back to normal.

Caster angle on the front axle, driveshaft-to-pinion gear angle on the rear axle, max up and down travel lengths/ angles for all shocks and sway bar ends are the other primary considerations when doing a lift. Tire to frame/ fender clearance also gets an honorable mention.

None of these have to be exact, but most have to operate within acceptable parameters and those are largely determined by your particular driving characteristics.

the Mopar feels like it sways side to side and very squishy.

Do you have more than 2" of lift in back? If so, a track bar relocation bracket will fix that.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

I'm running stock plastic now with intentions of going steel with a 10-12k pound winch after the lift. So I'd need a new alignment just by adding weight to the front end and tweaking adjustable LCAs would be part of said alignment?

Yes, you should measure caster after changing front suspension height. If caster needs adjusted, it's done by adjusting the arms.

 

[Mav4x4Chris]

I'm running stock plastic now with intentions of going steel with a 10-12k pound winch after the lift. So I'd need a new alignment just by adding weight to the front end and tweaking adjustable LCAs would be part of said alignment?

You wouldn't need an alignment - but I think what he is getting at is, as you make changes to the Jeep, maybe play with different springs, load the truck differently, etc - you may find that you need to adjust the caster on the front axle. Adjusting caster can even help or harm how well the truck drives. Many folks even believe that from the factory these trucks need a little additional caster over factory spec.

In the end, I prefer to have adjustable lower control arms in the front. It gives me the ability to make adjustments in the future should I need to - with a tape measure and a digital angle finder you can set a solid axle up forever without visiting an alignment shop. There is nothing all together wrong with fixed arms though, in certain applications.

Anyway, you'll have to make that choice on your own.

As @Pescatoral Pursuit pointed out. Shocks are one of the most important pieces, and once you reach a certain height those track bars get important too.

Lift kits are a slippery slope

 

[NotSo Bright White]

You really do want spend for good shocks more than anything. Driving on or off-road you'll never really feel the difference between any rubber bushing'd control arm. Somewhat maybe feel the difference from coil spring to coil spring. But you'll definitely notice the ride characteristics based on which shocks you have.

Another suggestion is that the brand kit is not as important as the components included.
Lifting the Jeep changes the geometry of all involved components and may or may not change ride characteristics, and that may vary from front to rear.
Take for instance track bars: I lifted my Jeep 3.5" in the front, 2.75" in the back. Even though the lift difference was only ¾", the front axle shifted significantly requiring an adjustable track bar to get it recentered. The rear axle shift was negligible, but: there was a lot of rear end sway over bumps because the rear axle is more sensitive to sway bar angle, which required a track bar relocation bracket to use with the factory track bar in order to bring the ride characteristic back to normal.

Caster angle on the front axle, driveshaft-to-pinion gear angle on the rear axle, max up and down travel lengths/ angles for all shocks and sway bar ends are the other primary considerations when doing a lift. Tire to frame/ fender clearance also gets an honorable mention.

None of these have to be exact, but most have to operate within acceptable parameters and those are largely determined by your particular driving characteristics.



Do you have more than 2" of lift in back? If so, a track bar relocation bracket will fix that.

Thanks for the info! No, I just have the Mopar 2 inch lift but now I think with the future lift, I may need to consider a rear track bar.

 

[HooliganActual]

One thing for everyone here who has mentioned springs, spring rates, etc., remember that you don't HAVE to be stuck with the spring rate that comes in your Clayton or AEV or Mopar or [insert brand here] lift. Especially you overlanders who are planning on having a lot of weight in the back.

You can always buy custom springs designed for the weight you plan on carrying instead of making do with what this lift or that lift offers...

I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy here but this one of the big reasons that I went Icon; it is "customizable". The shop I worked with sold me the Icon parts for a Stage 6 lift with the exception of the rear springs. For those they had Deaver Springs make springs designed for the weight I intended to carry. I have not heard of anyone else doing this. Maybe they do but I have not seen people posting that Clayton/Mopar/AEV/etc. sold them everything for the lift and then substituted the right the rear springs for the use case.

I struggle with the concept of customizing your vehicle for the purpose you intend but then be willing to accept Clayton/Mopar/AEV/etc. saying "these are the springs you get and that's that". I know that some of these guys sell an HD version of their spring for a given lift, but again, you are getting the same HD spring that everyone else gets and it may be too much or not enough for what you are doing.

Don't get stuck in the mind trap that you have to use what is being provided by the vendor and nothing else. The fact that you are modifying your Jeep already means that you don't accept that stigma.

 

[Free2roam]

I just installed the AEV dualsport lift on my GTR and could not be happier. Even with the full overlanding set up I felt the regular springs they offer is better suited to my rig. I will be upgrading to 35” E rated tires shortly.

How much weight are you carrying? Fully loaded. Got any pics of fully loaded with AEV suspension?

 

[smlobx]

I just installed the suspension about 2 weeks ago and haven’t had a chance to load up everything but here is a picture of us fully loaded on our trip to Colorado and Utah last year. This is on the WRT.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

One thing for everyone here who has mentioned springs, spring rates, etc., remember that you don't HAVE to be stuck with the spring rate that comes in your Clayton or AEV or Mopar or [insert brand here] lift. Especially you overlanders who are planning on having a lot of weight in the back.

You can always buy custom springs designed for the weight you plan on carrying instead of making do with what this lift or that lift offers...

I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy here but this one of the big reasons that I went Icon; it is "customizable". The shop I worked with sold me the Icon parts for a Stage 6 lift with the exception of the rear springs. For those they had Deaver Springs make springs designed for the weight I intended to carry. I have not heard of anyone else doing this. Maybe they do but I have not seen people posting that Clayton/Mopar/AEV/etc. sold them everything for the lift and then substituted the right the rear springs for the use case.

I struggle with the concept of customizing your vehicle for the purpose you intend but then be willing to accept Clayton/Mopar/AEV/etc. saying "these are the springs you get and that's that". I know that some of these guys sell an HD version of their spring for a given lift, but again, you are getting the same HD spring that everyone else gets and it may be too much or not enough for what you are doing.

Don't get stuck in the mind trap that you have to use what is being provided by the vendor and nothing else. The fact that you are modifying your Jeep already means that you don't accept that stigma.

There are many options with Clayton lifts. I doubt they’d force their springs on you. All you’d have to do is ask.

@Clayton Off Road , can someone do different rear springs than what you normally offer?

 

[Free2roam]

I just installed the suspension about 2 weeks ago and haven’t had a chance to load up everything but here is a picture of us fully loaded on our trip to Colorado and Utah last year. This is on the WRT.

What's your guestimate on weight?

 

[smlobx]

I came in at 6280#‘s with a full tank of gas and no extra fuel in my LRA gas tank and no water.

 

[chorky]

I highly recommend the AEV dual sport. I have had mine for a few months now, have done a ton of driving similar to you - daily, 2K miles of dirt road, maybe 300 miles of 4wd, and less than 50 miles of harder 4wd. The AEV has handled everything well. Below is the full list of what I went with. My desire for this particular vehicle was a little lift (not too much I have body problems), but first and foremost reliability, ease of replacing parts if necessary, and absolute minimum NVH. This setup has delivered. Time will tell of course, and one aspect up for debate that won't be settled for another 20K miles is if the constant flex with factory style clevite bushings will cause them to fail prematurely or get noisy, or if they will be just fine. I dont think anyone can really answer that yet. For reference, I am heaver that @smlobx, and still currently have the SD springs with the standard bilsteins. I have not yet decided on if I will move up to the HD springs, and/or the upgraded shocks, or do a performance external bypass shock, or something else. I am over the AEV "rating" of their SD springs and I am in the HD spring category. Because of that, I do get some rear end bounce - but no where near as bad as the factory Rubicon setup. However, although that is frustrating, I like the fact that the spring rate is 'soft' with the weight I have as it makes dirt roads feel like a pillow.

More info on my build thread if you wish, but here is a list of components I used.

• AEV dual sport standard duty with standard shocks
• Teraflex rear geometry correction brackets
  • they actually make a difference in NVH and driveline angles
• Steer smarts rear track bar (standard version to keep clevite bushings)
• steer smarts front track bar (standard version to keep clevite bushings)
• steer smarts sector shaft brace
  • however, I did NOT use the sector shaft brace - I only wanted the extra steel to beefed up the frame/steering gear

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/destination-unknown-2022-jtr-journal.66430/page-5. Post#65 has the bulk of the info. Somewhere in previous pages has discussion on why I personally opted for this route. Other companies also make excellent quality components and lift kits - but this kit suited my needs and desires better (for ME) and at less cost with less maintenance.

One CRITICAL aspect!! You really need to sit down and figure out how much weight you think you will be consistently, and how much weight for trips. This makes a big difference. Lots of folks don't do this and they end up with either crazy rear end squat, or super stiff/harsh rides. Weight to spring rate/shock dampening is important for ride quality, don't overlook it.

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