Bent Frame - Part Deux

[ShadowsPapa]

With the current 3.6 Pentastar, nothing on this thing is high speed .. Plus aerodynamically its just not feasible anyways ...

Do I have to do all of the heavy lifting around here ?

HAHAHA

My father worked in a factory - I learned before I was a teen about presses, the various types of steel, how it's formed, what HSS really is, tensile strength, and so on. Even toured the plant where he worked. Also toured multiple auto plants (Ford, Chrysler, etc.) and John Deere where I got to watch tractor frames formed and in another plant, engine blocks made.
Then in college got to learn more about automotive design and construction and repair. Took a short body shop class as well (back when you could buy all of the paint, primer, reducer and so on for under 100 bucks). In machine shop classes had to learn about the various types of steel, bolt TENSILE strength, how to torque bolts using stretch measurements, and more.
These are high strength frames, even high strength steel compared to most others, but it's not HSS as that's high speed steel, a different animal. It's more brittle once it reaches it's limits where other steels will bend.

Thats not marketing, HSS and AHSS are official desginations of steel. These arent the same steels you got even 10 years ago, this stuff is significantly stronger pound for pound than the old school steels.

LOL - I know! I read their bits years ago.
And HSS is HIGH SPEED STEEL. That's not what this is.
HSS - high speed steel - CUTTING TOOLS, drill bits, NOT FRAMES.
HSS is expensive - and typically it's an alloy having molybdenum, tungsten and chromium steel about 63–65 Rockwell "C" hardness.
Now do I need to pull out my Machinery's Handbook with more detail?
There's high strength steel and advanced high strength steel - having to do with their yield strength.
Rather than pull out the books and scan and post copyrighted pages (those books are NOT cheap) - here's a bit about AHSS -
Advanced high-strength steels (AHSS) are a class of steel used primarily in sheet form for automotive structures.
AHSS has a tensile strength of at least 440 MPa
They have a low alloying and carbon content to retain formability (so they can be pressed and rolled and formed) and weldability.
In other words, not like HSS or High Speed Steel which is very different.
high strength and advanced high strength weld very differently from mild steel or other steels.

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[sharpsicle]

Thats not marketing, HSS and AHSS are desginations of steel. These arent the same steels you got even 10 years ago, this stuff is significantly stronger pound for pound than the old school steels.

Yes i know this is for the wrangler, but I cant find the exact one for the gladiator, I cant imagine its any weaker.

Nothing here mentions HSS, and nothing here mentions strength numbers. These infographics are useless.

Also, @ShadowsPapa is correct that HSS stands for High Speed Steel. I cannot find anything to indicate that the Mojave uses high speed steel (HSS).

 

[bleda2002]

Nothing here mentions HSS, and nothing here mentions strength numbers. These infographics are useless.

Also, @ShadowsPapa is correct that HSS stands for High Speed Steel. I cannot find anything to indicate that the Mojave uses high speed steel (HSS).

The jeep infographic literally states high strength steel and advanced high strength steel.

Seriously just google a little bit. HSS means a lot of things, but they are specifically calling out High Strength and Advanced High Strength steel which in the automotive industry is abbrieviated to HSS and AHSS because we're not in a machine shop making drill bits.

 

[bleda2002]

LOL - I know! I read their bits years ago.
And HSS is HIGH SPEED STEEL. That's not what this is.
HSS - high speed steel - CUTTING TOOLS, drill bits, NOT FRAMES.
HSS is expensive - and typically it's an alloy having molybdenum, tungsten and chromium steel about 63–65 Rockwell "C" hardness.
Now do I need to pull out my Machinery's Handbook with more detail?
There's high strength steel and advanced high strength steel - having to do with their yield strength.
Rather than pull out the books and scan and post copyrighted pages (those books are NOT cheap) - here's a bit about AHSS -
Advanced high-strength steels (AHSS) are a class of steel used primarily in sheet form for automotive structures.
AHSS has a tensile strength of at least 440 MPa
They have a low alloying and carbon content to retain formability (so they can be pressed and rolled and formed) and weldability.
In other words, not like HSS or High Speed Steel which is very different.
high strength and advanced high strength weld very differently from mild steel or other steels.

We arent in a machine shop talking about drill bits, pretty much every automotive source that is put out there shortens high strength steel to be HSS and advanced high strength steel as AHSS. Your argument is that you like your abbreviation to mean this while I keep saying HIGH STRENGTH STEEL and shortening it to HSS like pretty much every other sane person does. If you have an issue i will make sure to spell out HIGH STRENGTH STEEL every time, instead of using the abbreviation that is most commonly associated with it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The jeep infographic literally states high strength steel and advanced high strength steel.

But that is NOT HSS and you kept mentioning HSS - HSS is High SPEED Steel - for cutting tools and so on.

In any case you are incorrect about how these frames work, the tensile strength and so on.
Call it whatever, and yes, you apparently do need a machine shop class because that's where yo learn about these materials, HSS, or high strength steel or advances high strength steel and their properties, how to weld them, how to form them, and more.
You were looking up numbers for HSS - high speed steel, and posting the tensile strength and so on and that's not the same as high strength - so when you looked up your numbers, you got the wrong stuff. High strength steel tensile strength starts as low as about 440 and you were giving numbers for HSS - almost double that.

Nothing here mentions HSS, and nothing here mentions strength numbers.

That's because Jeep does NOT use HSS.
They don't mention numbers because there are ranges for that. high strength steel and advanced high strength steel have ranges for their various properties.

If a person were to go to google and try to look up numbers for HSS - they'd be dead wrong because Jeep doesn't use HSS. That's totally different alloys than high STRENGTH steel or advanced high strength steel.

Anyone only needs to go out and look at their drill bit box and see that it likely says HSS - high SPEED steel. That's what the HSS designation is assumed to mean and has been used for for decades.

If you have an issue i will make sure to spell out HIGH STRENGTH STEEL every time, instead of using the abbreviation that is most commonly associated with it.

Wrong there - go in and type "what is HSS.

You will get this - I've been at this too long to not know what HSS is - I have a lifetime of working in and with this sort of thing..........

 

[sharpsicle]

The jeep infographic literally states high strength steel and advanced high strength steel.

Seriously just google a little bit. HSS means a lot of things, but they are specifically calling out High Strength and Advanced High Strength steel which in the automotive industry is abbrieviated to HSS and AHSS because we're not in a machine shop making drill bits.

So let me get this right so we can understand. You're saying that because a fraction of the frame is made with high-strength steel, the frame cannot bend when abused? And you're using a JL infographic with no strength numbers to back this up?

I'm not saying your necessarily wrong. I'm saying you have absolutely nothing here that helps anyone.

How someone defines HSS is not the hill to die on here. Because not matter how you define it, there's nothing usable in these posts!

 

[Gvsukids]

? much better thread than the first one...

 

[bleda2002]

So let me get this right so we can understand. You're saying that because a fraction of the frame is made with high-strength steel, the frame cannot bend when abused? And you're using a JL infographic with no strength numbers to back this up?

I'm not saying your necessarily wrong. I'm saying you have absolutely nothing here that helps anyone.

80% of the frame is not a fraction, literally look at the graphic. Also the type of steel has strength numbers to be classified as such. I mentioned its a JL frame but unless jeep decided to really cheap out o the gladiator frame it should be of similar construction which is basically everything but the crumple zones is atleast high strength steel.

"High Strength Steel a type of steel that has a yield strength that ranges between 30-80 ksi (210-550 MPa) and a tensile strength between 40-100 ksi (270 to 700 MPa). Steels with yield levels higher than 80 ksi (550 MPa) are considered Advanced High Strength Steels, and when the tensile levels exceed 113 ksi (780 MPa), they are referred to as Ultra High Strength Steels."

 

[sharpsicle]

80% of the frame is not a fraction, literally look at the graphic.

Sure is. 4/5 to be exact.

Look, you're trying to make a point that x weight over y distance can't bend z steel. Let's do that. Where are those numbers? That's the problem; you aren't giving anything useful to continue the conversation. Regurgitating the top result of a Google search isn't helping. Especially when we're talking force over distance and your numbers are in pressure.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

So let me get this right so we can understand. You're saying that because a fraction of the frame is made with high-strength steel, the frame cannot bend when abused? And you're using a JL infographic with no strength numbers to back this up?

I'm not saying your necessarily wrong. I'm saying you have absolutely nothing here that helps anyone.

How someone defines HSS is not the hill to die on here. Because not matter how you define it, there's nothing usable in these posts!

These frames WILL bend when abused. There's documented proof of that on YT and other places. They have crumple points like any other.
The difference is that with high strength steel, they can use THINNER and lighter steel frames!
It saves weight.
In other words, the frame is the SAME STRENGTH as a frame of the past, but lighter.

They use high strength steel not to make it stronger, but to make it just as strong with less steel.

There's a ton of info out there on how auto makers are using high strength and advanced high strength steel to SAVE WEIGHT. It's not to make it rigid and un-crumple-able, it's to make it LIGHTER. Thinner steel in the frame walls, just as strong as the frame of 5 years ago but many pounds lighter.
So the strength isn't for stronger- it's for WEIGHT reduction.

 

[bleda2002]

But that is NOT HSS and you kept mentioning HSS - HSS is High SPEED Steel - for cutting tools and so on.

In any case you are incorrect about how these frames work, the tensile strength and so on.
Call it whatever, and yes, you apparently do need a machine shop class because that's where yo learn about these materials, HSS, or high strength steel or advances high strength steel and their properties, how to weld them, how to form them, and more.
You were looking up numbers for HSS - high speed steel, and posting the tensile strength and so on and that's not the same as high strength - so when you looked up your numbers, you got the wrong stuff. High strength steel tensile strength starts as low as about 440 and you were giving numbers for HSS - almost double that.



That's because Jeep does NOT use HSS.
They don't mention numbers because there are ranges for that. high strength steel and advanced high strength steel have ranges for their various properties.

If a person were to go to google and try to look up numbers for HSS - they'd be dead wrong because Jeep doesn't use HSS. That's totally different alloys than high STRENGTH steel or advanced high strength steel.

Anyone only needs to go out and look at their drill bit box and see that it likely says HSS - high SPEED steel. That's what the HSS designation is assumed to mean and has been used for for decades.



Wrong there - go in and type "what is HSS.

You will get this - I've been at this too long to not know what HSS is - I have a lifetime of working in and with this sort of thing..........

You are correct, jeep does not use drill bit steel in the frame. I never claimed they used drill bit steel in the frame, I said they use high strength steel and advanced high strength steel in the frame. I assumed that given we are talking about cars, and in car articles high strength steel is shortened to HSS that no one would confuse drill bits with frame material.

 

[Jerhemi]

HSS is also used as an abbreviaton for Hollow Structural Sections. Just to be a dick

 

[bleda2002]

Sure is. 4/5 to be exact.

Look, you're trying to make a point that x weight over y distance can't bend z steel. Let's do that. Where are those numbers? That's the problem; you aren't giving anything useful to continue the conversation. Regurgitating the top result of a Google search isn't helping.

I believe that applies to everyone saying these frames will bend because he had 700 pounds in the bed, show me those numbers. I'm saying that if this stuff is AHSS and High Strength Steel, those numbers are a lot higher than just oops i drove down a dirt road overloaded. My point was that the force to bend these frames would have other damage, no way he bent that frame and thats all the damage he took.

 

[bleda2002]

HSS is also used as an abbreviaton for Hollow Structural Sections. Just to be a dick

Careful, they'll jump on you next that there is no drill bit steel inside of it!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

high strength steel is used to make frames lighter - not stiffer, not more rigid, not to prevent bending and flexing.
The numbers you originally posted were not for high strength steel - but for HSS.
Doesn't matter because it's still wrong - these frames will bend like any other because they must.
They will flex like others because they must. To not bend or not flex means to crack.
The strength is to save weight. They are not using the same thickness they did past years, they are making them more THIN and lighter. So the frame isn't stiffer, it's lighter.

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