Ecodiesel power derating as temps rise?

[Gladiator_FX]

I live in Mesa, AZ Sent an email to Bulletproof to see if they want to take a look at my rig.

Also I've seen some mention about tuning. Be careful about tuning as it will void your warranty on the engine.

Oh the risks we take being enthusiasts. ??

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[houseofdiesel]

What are your thoughts on what needs to be addressed? Oil cooler so it doesn't overwhelm the cooling system? Or larger cooling system so it doesn't become overwhelmed?

With the 6.0 the cooling system was completely overwelmed. With some of the newer HD trucks they have started using dual radiators and dual thermostats. But even that in extreme conditions we experience throughout the West and South you can see oil temps reaching over 240* which I don't like. The Mishimoto and BulletProof increased factory replacement coolers work well but not enough for extreme and sever conditions. Like max load over 95*. Not sure what the minimum speed is required by NHTSA for their new tow and GVW ratings but 45 or 35 mph up a grade is dangerous. Obviously they have never been on a grade fully loaded with cars zooming by doing 80 mph. All my HD trucks I set up to be able to maintain 65 fully loaded in 100* plus temps. I never want to worry about becoming a speed bump with a full load on a grade or in high temps on twisties. Manufacturers are promoting keeping higher operating temps to after market manufacturers. Not sure if that has more to do with oils, emissions, or planned obsolescence.

 

[CrazyCooter]

With the 6.0 the cooling system was completely overwelmed. With some of the newer HD trucks they have started using dual radiators and dual thermostats. But even that in extreme conditions we experience throughout the West and South you can see oil temps reaching over 240* which I don't like. The Mishimoto and BulletProof increased factory replacement coolers work well but not enough for extreme and sever conditions. Like max load over 95*. Not sure what the minimum speed is required by NHTSA for their new tow and GVW ratings but 45 or 35 mph up a grade is dangerous. Obviously they have never been on a grade fully loaded with cars zooming by doing 80 mph. All my HD trucks I set up to be able to maintain 65 fully loaded in 100* plus temps. I never want to worry about becoming a speed bump with a full load on a grade or in high temps on twisties. Manufacturers are promoting keeping higher operating temps to after market manufacturers. Not sure if that has more to do with oils, emissions, or planned obsolescence.

At this point, I'd settle for the tow rating at 45mph on a 6% at 100° like they advertise? I don't think 240° oil temp under full load climbing a hill is horrible so long as it drops back down to 220s after the terrain flattens.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Just spoke with a tech at Cold Case Radiator. He obviously did not know if their radiator would make any difference as they have not tested one on the JT Eco.......

He did recomend NOT replacing it since my vehicle was still under warranty and had heard of dealers denying warranty on other cooling system parts because if the installation of an aftermarket radiator.......... Obviously we know this is a potential issue depending on the dealer you do business with.

 

[steelponycowboy]

Well my issues are getting worse it seems. Yesterday it was 108 and I took a drive from Mesa to the Bush Hwy on 87 north. Cruise control on at 65mph, mostly flat terrain with some low short hills.
Coolant temp was 221, trans temp was 208, oil temp was 244. It seems the more miles I get on the JTR the worse the fuel mileage gets and the oil temps run higher than they did new.

I'm beginning to think that maybe I should have got the 3.6 and put a Super or Turbo charger on it.

If we are having problems with the diesel and cooling, I can't imagine the issues those with the 392 in the JLs are going to have.

 

[CrazyCooter]

I have a buddy that just took delivery of his 392 JL and he is aware of our cooling issues, but has yet to experience any on his in the past 3 weeks of ownership.

 

[smlobx]

Well my issues are getting worse it seems. Yesterday it was 108 and I took a drive from Mesa to the Bush Hwy on 87 north. Cruise control on at 65mph, mostly flat terrain with some low short hills.
Coolant temp was 221, trans temp was 208, oil temp was 244. It seems the more miles I get on the JTR the worse the fuel mileage gets and the oil temps run higher than they did new.

I'm beginning to think that maybe I should have got the 3.6 and put a Super or Turbo charger on it.

If we are having problems with the diesel and cooling, I can't imagine the issues those with the 392 in the JLs are going to have.

Those temps are all in the normal operating range. If you want to have real problems try putting a supercharger or turbo on the V6…

 

[869 KPH]

If we are having problems with the diesel and cooling, I can't imagine the issues those with the 392 in the JLs are going to have.

The 392 shouldn't generate anywhere near the amount of heat as the EcoDiesel & emissions setup though, right? Another reason why they should offer a NA V8, IMO.

 

[CrazyCooter]

The 392 shouldn't generate anywhere near the amount of heat as the EcoDiesel & emissions setup though, right? Another reason why they should offer a NA V8, IMO.

1HP = 2,544.43 BTU's and approx 1/3 of that heat is transferred into a normal engine's cooling system.

With that said, 470hp obviously generates more heat than 260hp, but then I suppose cooling EGR and the turbo housing in the diesel could translate into more transfer to the cooling system than the 392? 392 has more surface area and exhaust to waste the heat before tranferring into the cooling?

 

[869 KPH]

1HP = 2,544.43 BTU's and approx 1/3 of that heat is transferred into a normal engine's cooling system.

With that said, 470hp obviously generates more heat than 260hp, but then I suppose cooling EGR and the turbo housing in the diesel could translate into more transfer to the cooling system than the 392? 392 has more surface area and exhaust to waste the heat before tranferring into the cooling?

Yeah I'm no expert, but I thought chronic heat soak was the bane of the EcoDiesel. Like it just generates so much heat that it eventually can't catch up (in certain situations).

 

[WXman]

I don't understand why guys are so paranoid about oil temperatures.

My father (45+ year mechanic) was telling me just last week that he was working on some industrial equipment with a diesel engine and the oil temperature SPEC on that engine was 260 degrees. As in, that's where the manufacturer expected the engine to run and tuned it run optimally there.

Particularly when we're talking synthetic oils... they can handle a lot of heat. And diesels run on the principle of heat and compression. It's not an issue.

Coolant temp. is what you want to watch.

 

[CrazyCooter]

I don't understand why guys are so paranoid about oil temperatures.

My father (45+ year mechanic) was telling me just last week that he was working on some industrial equipment with a diesel engine and the oil temperature SPEC on that engine was 260 degrees. As in, that's where the manufacturer expected the engine to run and tuned it run optimally there.

Particularly when we're talking synthetic oils... they can handle a lot of heat. And diesels run on the principle of heat and compression. It's not an issue.

Coolant temp. is what you want to watch.

I'm not paranoid.....I'm irritated by the loss of power that the oil temps appear to cause? The manufacturer could have chosen the 260° threshold to keep the pistons cool?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I don't understand why guys are so paranoid about oil temperatures.

My father (45+ year mechanic) was telling me just last week that he was working on some industrial equipment with a diesel engine and the oil temperature SPEC on that engine was 260 degrees. As in, that's where the manufacturer expected the engine to run and tuned it run optimally there.

Particularly when we're talking synthetic oils... they can handle a lot of heat. And diesels run on the principle of heat and compression. It's not an issue.

Coolant temp. is what you want to watch.

Wrong about synthetics handling "a lot of heat" vs. conventional oils.
Here's some test data information - note the differences are very low (from a guy who tests these things) -

I’ve tested a number of synthetic, semi-synthetic and conventional gasoline engine oils for the onset of thermal breakdown. Individually, the synthetic oils that were tested, varied between 300* F and 210* F. But, on average, the onset of thermal breakdown for those synthetic oils was 276*F. Individually, the conventional oils varied between 280* F and 255* F, and the average for those conventional oils was 268*F. So, as you can see looking at the averages for each type of oil, there was only an 8* difference, meaning that overall, there is little to no difference in their abilities to withstand high temps. So, while some individual synthetic oils do well when subjected to high heat, overall they do not live up to the outrageous claims of some Internet articles. At the end of the day, the conventional oils tested here, were about the same regarding their ability to withstand heat, making them a lot better than many people think. And the average value for the onset of thermal breakdown for all these gasoline engine oils combined = 273* F.

I’ve also tested synthetic and conventional Diesel oils for the onset of thermal breakdown. Individually, the synthetic oils that were tested, varied between 285* F and 255* F. But, on average, the onset of thermal breakdown for those synthetic Diesel oils was 269*F. Individually, the conventional Diesel oils varied between 265* F and 250* F, and the average for those conventional oils was 254*F. The average value for the onset of thermal breakdown for all the tested Diesel oils combined = 261* F. Comparing the overall averages, you can see that these Diesel oils fell victim to heat about 12* F earlier than the gasoline engine oils that were tested. So, that is another reason why using Diesel oils in High Performance gas engines, is a poor choice.
-------------
So the difference on average for gas engine oils synthetic vs. conventional ability to handle heat was only 8 degrees - for diesel oils, about 15 degrees. Not a big difference, especially when you consider that some oils will have far higher ratings than others - that's just an average. I could find a conventional oil that handles heat BETTER than a synthetic oil. Numbers prove it.
8 degrees difference? 15 degrees difference? That's not a whole lot.
These things measure oil temps at the sump.
Oil temperatures elsewhere will be a whole lot different - higher even. The highest oil temps will typically be found in the incompressible “liquid” oil wedge formed as the oil is pulled into the clearance of the rod and main bearings. That is because, the oil at those locations is being heavily loaded on the power stroke, while at the same time, being sheared.
Shearing forces heat oil. It's friction within the oil itself. Oil at these locations can be 50* to 90* hotter than sump temperatures. So if the sump temp is 250 oil at the bearings could be 300.

Oil temperature gauges are there for a reason.

During the very brief time interval that oil is flowing through the rod and main bearings, most oils will momentarily reach and exceed their thermal breakdown points. And the cooler the oil starts out, the lower the max temp it reaches there. This is where oils with a higher onset of thermal breakdown point, offer some benefit. Because the less often an oil reaches its breakdown point, and the lower the max temp reached above that point, the longer its capability will remain near new oil level. This means that oils with higher onset of thermal breakdown points, can go longer between oil changes, with regard to thermal deterioration. However, oils with more modest thermal breakdown points can also be used without issue, as long as reasonable oil change intervals are followed, to stay ahead of any significant thermal deterioration.

Hitting 260, 270, etc. doesn't mean you have trouble and the oil won't protect - it takes time at those temperatures. That's the starting point of thermal breakdown for oils, not the drop dead temperature. It means "change sooner than 10,000 miles" is what it means.

Oils (engine oils) do NOT stop working the instant they reach their onset of thermal breakdown point. But it's not a good idea to run oil above its thermal breakdown point for extended periods of time. Because that will degrade its capability more and more as time/mileage goes on.

A couple of the top oils has a really high onset of thermal breakdown -
5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP at 290 degrees
5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API at 305 degrees

Some are as low as 260-270. Oil makes a huge difference, not all are created equal in protection or withstanding high temps without breaking down.

I'm not paranoid.....I'm irritated by the loss of power that the oil temps appear to cause? The manufacturer could have chosen the 260° threshold to keep the pistons cool?

Keep on watching - science over whatever.......... not all oils are created equally and that sump temperature is just that - oil that's not touching parts or working hard to keep parts of the engine from scraping each other. The sump may be 260 but oil elsewhere may be over 300.
This is another area where people tend to believe what they've been told without digging deeper or having a full understanding of what happens, or the differences in oils.
The engineers picked that temperature likely because they know the oil elsewhere will be 50 or more degrees more hot and oil exposed to those temperatures for longer times will break down and not protect as well. There's documented proof of that out there.

 

[WXman]

I'm not paranoid.....I'm irritated by the loss of power that the oil temps appear to cause? The manufacturer could have chosen the 260° threshold to keep the pistons cool?

The ECU protecting the engine isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I understand that it frustrates people in high altitude and stressful environments.

Wrong about synthetics handling "a lot of heat" vs. conventional oils.
Here's some test data information - note the differences are very low (from a guy who tests these things) -

I’ve tested a number of synthetic, semi-synthetic and conventional gasoline engine oils for the onset of thermal breakdown. Individually, the synthetic oils that were tested, varied between 300* F and 210* F. But, on average, the onset of thermal breakdown for those synthetic oils was 276*F. Individually, the conventional oils varied between 280* F and 255* F, and the average for those conventional oils was 268*F. So, as you can see looking at the averages for each type of oil, there was only an 8* difference, meaning that overall, there is little to no difference in their abilities to withstand high temps. So, while some individual synthetic oils do well when subjected to high heat, overall they do not live up to the outrageous claims of some Internet articles. At the end of the day, the conventional oils tested here, were about the same regarding their ability to withstand heat, making them a lot better than many people think. And the average value for the onset of thermal breakdown for all these gasoline engine oils combined = 273* F.

I’ve also tested synthetic and conventional Diesel oils for the onset of thermal breakdown. Individually, the synthetic oils that were tested, varied between 285* F and 255* F. But, on average, the onset of thermal breakdown for those synthetic Diesel oils was 269*F. Individually, the conventional Diesel oils varied between 265* F and 250* F, and the average for those conventional oils was 254*F. The average value for the onset of thermal breakdown for all the tested Diesel oils combined = 261* F. Comparing the overall averages, you can see that these Diesel oils fell victim to heat about 12* F earlier than the gasoline engine oils that were tested. So, that is another reason why using Diesel oils in High Performance gas engines, is a poor choice.
-------------
So the difference on average for gas engine oils was only 8 degrees - for diesel oils, about 15 degrees.
That's not a whole lot. Further, these things measure oil temps at the sump. Oil temperatures elsewhere will be a whole lot different - higher even. The highest oil temps will typically be found in the incompressible “liquid” oil wedge formed as the oil is pulled into the clearance of the rod and main bearings. That is because, the oil at those locations is being heavily loaded on the power stroke, while at the same time, being sheared. Oil at these locations can be 50* to 90* hotter than sump temperatures. So if the sump temp is 250 oil at the bearings could be 300.

Oil temperature gauges are there for a reason.

During the very brief time interval that oil is flowing through the rod and main bearings, most oils will momentarily reach and exceed their thermal breakdown points. And the cooler the oil starts out, the lower the max temp it reaches there. This is where oils with a higher onset of thermal breakdown point, offer some benefit. Because the less often an oil reaches its breakdown point, and the lower the max temp reached above that point, the longer its capability will remain near new oil level. This means that oils with higher onset of thermal breakdown points, can go longer between oil changes, with regard to thermal deterioration. However, oils with more modest thermal breakdown points can also be used without issue, as long as reasonable oil change intervals are followed, to stay ahead of any significant thermal deterioration.

Hitting 260, 270, etc. doesn't mean you have trouble and the oil won't protect - it takes time at those temperatures. That's the starting point of thermal breakdown for oils, not the drop dead temperature.
Oils (engine oils) do NOT stop working the instant they reach their onset of thermal breakdown point. But it's not a good idea to run oil above its thermal breakdown point for extended periods of time. Because that will degrade its capability more and more as time/mileage goes on.

A couple of the top oils has a really high onset of thermal breakdown -
5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP at 290 degrees
5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API at 305 degrees

Some are as low as 260-270. Oil makes a huge difference, not all are created equal in protection or withstanding high temps without breaking down.



Keep on watching - science over whatever.......... not all oils are created equally and that sump temperature is just that - oil that's not touching parts or working hard to keep parts of the engine from scraping each other. The sump may be 260 but oil elsewhere may be over 300.
This is another area where people tend to believe what they've been told without digging deeper or having a full understanding of what happens, or the differences in oils.
The engineers picked that temperature likely because they know the oil elsewhere will be 50 or more degrees more hot and oil exposed to those temperatures for longer times will break down and not protect as well. There's documented proof of that out there.

A snippet from another thread:

" When I was a development engineer at Cummins, I used to run hot box tests at rated power for hundreds of hours on engines with 230F coolant temperatures, which drove the oil temperatures to 280F on dino 15w40. We never worried about the durability. All that my management wanted to know was the exact date that the test would be completed."

Since dino oils have much lower breakdown temperatures than synthetics, 300 degrees on a syn oil is not an issue.

You are wrong, and I have never had an issue with you. I actually respect you. But I'm kind of getting tired of you jumping on every post I make and trying to discredit me.

Everything I posted in this thread is 100% accurate. Period.

 

[WXman]

And I will throw in another snippet straight off a popular oil company website. Keep in mind this is true of all synthetic oils on the shelf these days, as most of these oils are all blended and bottled in only a handful of plants by a small number of refineries.

" Mobil 1 advanced synthetic motor oil provides outstanding high-temperature performance and is proven to protect at engine temperatures up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit. "

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