Genesis dual battery system - a discussion

[IzzyO]

Chorky,

Thanks for your post on this and the in-depth analysis. While you've posted and linked to the newer 3rd gen system I'd like to point out an issue with the Genesis dual system Gen 2 that has left myself and a few of my friends (and apparently several on the JL forums) I jeep with rather unhappy since the only solution is to 'upgrade to the Gen 3'. The upgrade is actually an entirely new system.

By Genesis Offroad's own admission the previous gen 2 is problematic.

1. The smart charging system falsely recognize that both batteries are fully charged and then turned down its output (dropping alternator output below 12.7) which resulted in the smart isolator separating the batteries and allowing for accessories to draw down the battery. Shane has indicated that they addressed this issue with their new gen 3 system preventing the factory smart alternator from dropping its output with the gen 3 power hub.

2. The batteries are drained overnight due to the solenoids current draw.

Okay, great, love to hear that this has been addressed and finally solved. So, the solution is to buy the gen 3 and for everyone who has purchased the 2nd gen your are basically SOL. The new gen 3 'upgrade' is $449. I get that they're 'learning' and addressing issues as they come along, however, the solution should really be for anyone with the jeep gen 2 version to offer a credit for upgrade. We don't expect something for free, but a credit or trade in would go a long ways towards existing customer relations. The inquiries I've seen with people asking as much have been met with crickets.

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[chorky]

at, love to hear that this has been addressed and finally solved. So, the solution is to buy the gen 3 and for everyone who has purchased the 2nd gen your are basically SOL. The new gen 3 'upgrade' is $449. I get that they're 'learning' and addressing issues as they come along, however, the solution should really be for anyone with the jeep gen 2 version to offer a credit for upgrade. We don't expect something for free, but a credit or trade in would go a long ways towards existing customer relations. The inquiries I've seen with people asking as much have been met wit

That certainly sounds frustrating and since I did not have the 2nd gen I don't have any basis to compare off of. Maybe you could share some pics of your setup, and do some wire tracing.

 

[chorky]

A fellow forum member pointed me to the post below, and I felt this a very important thing to discuss. First I want to make it very clear that I am NOT in ANY way trying to make fun of the situation in the quoted posts below! And I am not trying to, in any way, downgrade a persons selection of items that work the best for them. So, no harm no foul ok?

However, I do want to hi light something that often times seems to be WAY overlooked on this forum and others. The dirty side of lithium battery options - and no I'm not talking about the manufacturing process. They, lithium batteries, flat out will not work in cold situations. I mean, ok let's be realistic for a second - who actually wants to go camping when temps are below 0, much less under +20 F. I don't..... But, there are times where day temps in shoulder seasons may be in the high 30's but night temperatures drop into the teens or lower - which is kinda the whole reason for diesel/gas/propane tent heaters anyway.

Unfortunately, here is a situation where a lithium battery pack did not operate because it was too cold. I know, I know, some batteries have self heaters. But be realistic, unless batteries are in an enclosed space with 6+ inches of foam insulation, those heaters are not going to warm the battery enough to function. And if they do, you will have to worry about overheating issues in the summer, as well as batteries draining themselves from operating the self heating function in the first place.

Now that we understand the downside of lithium options, let's get super serious for a second. There have been a few people here, and on other forums who have been roped into the fallacy that a lithium battery can be a direct replacement for a standard led-acid battery under the hood as the main vehicle battery (heck a friend of mine almost did this because of false information on forums and flat out lies from vendors). Several of the folks have been informed that it doesn't work - and also were given some detailed reasons why as well. However, time and time again I have seen, here as well as other forums, people throwing caution to the wind and believing in a vendor (whose only purpose, really, is to make money). Now just about every one of these people who have tried lithium as a direct replacement realized the vendors lied, and that lithium cannot directly replace an led-acid battery in a vehicle. There is discussion out there on why but it boils down to charging profiles, temperatures, and power draw. So lets imagine for a moment, that someone did replace their main battery with lithium thinking it was the way, and on their first trip out before they had ample time to test it for it to fail, they drove out 100 miles in the middle of nowhere for a camping trip. It was great, they had lots of battery life, ran their camping gear... But the next morning was frigid. And they went to pack up and go home - and 'click'. No start. Not even an indication of turning over. This could potentially be a deadly situation. Without heat (does everyone carry a 10 essentials pack still?), without abilities to restart, without cell signal, without enough battery to power CB/GMRS/HAM for an emergency broadcast - a person would be in a very bad situation....

Two days ago I started up my little TJ to get oils and things moving, and go for a little 30 mile drive to warm it up. It BARELY started. It sounded like the battery was on the very last bit of charge - in fact it probably destroyed the battery starting it now that I think about it. And it has a 2 year old Optima yellow top 1100 CCA AGM. And it has been on a tender for the last week solid specifically due to night time temps approaching -45 windchill. Just yesterday I started my JT to take it for the same 30 mile drive to get oils and things moving. It was unhappy starting. Temps overnight were around -28 and day temps when I started it was -18. It also has a BRAND NEW 950 CCA 94R full throttle AGM battery. It too is connected to a ctek charger/tender that works to -25 degrees.

So, this hi-lights the reason I am sticking with AGM. AGM we all know works. is it the best option? No... It is heavy, bulky, depending on who you go with may only have a DOD rate of 50% (mine can drain safely to 0% DOD). But neither is lithium. They all have pros/cons, positives/compromises. For ME lithium is not a good option. Not only is it not a good option, it is a waste of money and would only work for maybe 2 months out of an entire year due to temperatures in my area. And this post, not to pick on anyone in any way, just hi lights why AGM is preferred in my applications.

Even more, with the Genesis system, or a home made system, or some combination - the aux AGM battery(ies) could be combined with the under hood main battery to ensure starting in extreme cold should the main battery not be enough 'juice'. You cannot safely, without damage, do that with lithium batteries. They are not conducive to large and fast power draw like starting. They are designed for low power draw over a long period of time.

I sincerely hope everyone reads, understands, and comprehends this. Again, I am not saying that Lithium is 'the devil' ha! But I am saying that it is not the end-all-be-all-everything to all answers 'overlanding' and camping. It has massive benefits. It also has major downfalls. And if you live in an environment that frequently gets below freezing - you might want to consider other options, or ensure you have a backup plan.

So don't just believe everything you hear or read - especially from vendors. Do the research, learn, understand, and be realistic with your use case.

It's -12 Degrees F or -25 Degrees C this morning in Missouri. It's a great day to test the Diesel Heater!

Only one problem, it didn't work!. My Pecron Power supply only works down to -20 C. Good thing I'm not camping today!!!

Keep your powder dry and your Lithium Power supply warm!

Brrrr...

That's a big problem with LiPo batteries, I had mine shut down in past running fridge freezer luckily it was so cold it wasn't a problem for me then. But it is a problem with running a diesel heater and lights. My LiPo battery is located in cabin of Jeep that can extend time before shutdown. (Not my preference for location.) Now when the solid state type batteries become available that will be a "game changer". My out of the box technique is the (2) 36 amp hrs set I have in a battery case, that has multiple outlets. With a 20 ft 10ga SAE extension cord that connects with D.F. heater. With it you can stow it inside the area being heated.

 

[Henry234]

Chorky, new to the forum and joined because I saw this thread. Would you be willing to remove the cover and get a few pics of the wiring? I have a feeling if it's weird like I think it is, then it won't work for me.

 

[Mtpisgah]

Chorky,

Thanks for your post on this and the in-depth analysis. While you've posted and linked to the newer 3rd gen system I'd like to point out an issue with the Genesis dual system Gen 2 that has left myself and a few of my friends (and apparently several on the JL forums) I jeep with rather unhappy since the only solution is to 'upgrade to the Gen 3'. The upgrade is actually an entirely new system.

By Genesis Offroad's own admission the previous gen 2 is problematic.

1. The smart charging system falsely recognize that both batteries are fully charged and then turned down its output (dropping alternator output below 12.7) which resulted in the smart isolator separating the batteries and allowing for accessories to draw down the battery. Shane has indicated that they addressed this issue with their new gen 3 system preventing the factory smart alternator from dropping its output with the gen 3 power hub.

2. The batteries are drained overnight due to the solenoids current draw.

Okay, great, love to hear that this has been addressed and finally solved. So, the solution is to buy the gen 3 and for everyone who has purchased the 2nd gen your are basically SOL. The new gen 3 'upgrade' is $449. I get that they're 'learning' and addressing issues as they come along, however, the solution should really be for anyone with the jeep gen 2 version to offer a credit for upgrade. We don't expect something for free, but a credit or trade in would go a long ways towards existing customer relations. The inquiries I've seen with people asking as much have been met with crickets.

I just saw this post and realized this may be the issue with my Gen 2. It sometimes drains the batteries a lot faster than I would think it should and compared to people I have talked to. I may have to contact them to discuss it.

 

[Jaxmax]

Henry234 here are some pictures hard to see it all but it is pretty nice there is no power draw on the combiner after it switches, the older version had a solenoid with a coil that would have current draw when activated and also create heat, which can draw down the battery. The new version is vastly improved with better lugs for hook up, everything is covered. Even the switch is improved with a light to show status of combiner and allows automatic mode, connected, or separated positions. I agree Genesis should perhaps do better perhaps trading in an old version as a core towards the new version , I can see their side also as upgrading everything they sold already would be a hit, and is caused by them improving the system. I would love to see the next upgrade being a larger house battery in future , but space is tight….Jack

PS: Kudos to Chorky for helping me with my system which is small and focused on running an ARB Elements fridge , with a Zamp US made 100watt solar panel going on my RSI cap, utilizing a Voswitch system to handle loads.

 

[chorky]

Chorky, new to the forum and joined because I saw this thread. Would you be willing to remove the cover and get a few pics of the wiring? I have a feeling if it's weird like I think it is, then it won't work for me.

Sorry for the late response, it's been a pretty crazy few weeks. Thanks to @Jaxmax for his photos. My wiring is exactly the same as how it came, I just put the brains of the system on a different mounting platform to accommodate the factory size battery since my aux batteries are in the bed. The wiring can get confusing though if you are trying to make modifications. I forget what wires exactly do what, but the folks at Genesis have been good at explaining it to me in the past just since I am curious minded.

 

[Henry234]

Henry234 here are some pictures hard to see it all but it is pretty nice there is no power draw on the combiner after it switches, the older version had a solenoid with a coil that would have current draw when activated and also create heat, which can draw down the battery. The new version is vastly improved with better lugs for hook up, everything is covered. Even the switch is improved with a light to show status of combiner and allows automatic mode, connected, or separated positions. I agree Genesis should perhaps do better perhaps trading in an old version as a core towards the new version , I can see their side also as upgrading everything they sold already would be a hit, and is caused by them improving the system. I would love to see the next upgrade being a larger house battery in future , but space is tight….Jack

PS: Kudos to Chorky for helping me with my system which is small and focused on running an ARB Elements fridge , with a Zamp US made 100watt solar panel going on my RSI cap, utilizing a Voswitch system to handle loads.

Hey thanks for the pics! Badass setup you got! I wish they sold the system with just the connector and switch as I don't the busbars. I am going to email them to ask a few more questions on wiring as I used a littelfuse combiner in the past with problems.

Sorry for the late response, it's been a pretty crazy few weeks. Thanks to @Jaxmax for his photos. My wiring is exactly the same as how it came, I just put the brains of the system on a different mounting platform to accommodate the factory size battery since my aux batteries are in the bed. The wiring can get confusing though if you are trying to make modifications. I forget what wires exactly do what, but the folks at Genesis have been good at explaining it to me in the past just since I am curious minded.

Hey thanks for the reply! No biggie on the late response as I understand crazy. I will have to inquire about a few wires before I pull the trigger, so I will email them.

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