DaveNH

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the government spends more money than it takes in,
Right. Spending is the problem. Not less taxation.

This argument also assumes that govt has a prior claim on all income.

The tax credit is absolutely a distortion in the market, which brings with it other problems.

But one person paying less in taxes is in no way a burden on others. Govt spending is the burden.

Do you also reject tax refunds overall?

 

869 KPH

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This argument also assumes that govt has a prior claim on all income.
I've seen this thought come up a few times on here before. Not trying to stir a pot here, but isn't that how a modern society functions? It's the Social Contract - I pay in, and I benefit from being a part of this society. Maybe I don't like how equitable any of the inputs and outputs are, but fundamentally, isn't this how it's supposed to work?

So ... for the second time today I get to use this:

1626200880665.png
 

Mr._Bill

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Right. Spending is the problem. Not less taxation.

This argument also assumes that govt has a prior claim on all income.

The tax credit is absolutely a distortion in the market, which brings with it other problems.

But one person paying less in taxes is in no way a burden on others. Govt spending is the burden.

Do you also reject tax refunds overall?
Someone paying less than their calculated share requires others to make up the difference. Any refund, that is more than a return of excess paid in, is part of that. No system is perfect, I'm just pointing out how ours works. I don't complain, because I benefit from the system. At the present time, I take out more than I pay in, and am aware that money comes from other taxpayers and loans taken out by the government.
 

DaveNH

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I've seen this thought come up a few times on here before. Not trying to stir a pot here, but isn't that how a modern society functions? It's the Social Contract - I pay in, and I benefit from being a part of this society. Maybe I don't like how equitable any of the inputs and outputs are, but fundamentally, isn't this how it's supposed to work?

So ... for the second time today I get to use this:

1626200880665.png
No.

Social contract theory is different than what is implied by his argument.

This argument against tax credits presumes that you don't actually own your property (income, in this case). They have claim to 100% of "your" income and allow you to have some.

In this framework, a tax credit is viewed as a subsidy...a payment from govt to you, rather than you paying less in tax. Thus the argument is that the tax credit CREATES the deficit, as unfunded spending, that must be borne by future taxpayers.
 


Mr._Bill

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How is the "excess paid in" determined?
Being citizens, we are subject to the taxes placed upon us by the people we voted into government positions to represent us. The tax system has rates to determine what each taxpayer owes each year. If you paid in more than the system says you owe, and get a refund, that's excess paid in. The system is a mess and has provisions that allow refunds that are more than excess, or the ability to pay less than would normally be expected. That's just how the system is, and efforts to reform it usually fail. It has come a long way from the original system that was a single page form with everyone paying a percentage of their income.
 

Mr._Bill

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Fixed your post.
That's your interpretation without knowing anything about me. I said I currently take out more than I pay in, not that I don't pay taxes.

The system is flawed and needs reform. The people I vote for have not changed it, so I take advantage of it, just like everyone else that is capable.
 

5JeepsAz

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I always thought we pay taxes to raise wages for war fighters, first responders, teachers, and to provide a safety net to them for their entire life, for their service to our nation. These people are also called consumers. Not paying taxes does punish these consumers, and those with similarly unlivable wages. Meanwhile, not by the efforts of anyone alive today, we are the wealthiest country in the richest time in human history. What I meant was, if the nice people would pay their taxes to support to their countrymen, as a civic duty, every American would be able to afford cool cars without going to incentives, and have time away from labor to enjoy a jeep ride.[
 

DaveNH

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That's your interpretation without knowing anything about me. I said I currently take out more than I pay in, not that I don't pay taxes.
Actually, my point had nothing to do with that.

You said:

The tax system has rates to determine what each taxpayer owes each year.
But it's not just rates. It's also arbitrary deductions and credits which reduce taxable income and the tax that would otherwise be owed.

Per your argument, this would also require someone else (future taxpayers) to make up the difference.

But curiously you draw the line at paying less than the "calculated share." Convenient.

Why do you think that THIS credit is not part of the calculated share?
 


Mr._Bill

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Actually, my point had nothing to do with that.

You said:



But it's not just rates. It's also arbitrary deductions and credits which reduce taxable income and the tax that would otherwise be owed.

Per your argument, this would also require someone else (future taxpayers) to make up the difference.

But curiously you draw the line at paying less than the "calculated share." Convenient.

Why do you think that THIS credit is not part of the calculated share?
Go back and read what I wrote. You seem to be picking and choosing to try and make some unknown point. My intent has been to provide technical information about various aspects of the system.

Any yes, whenever the government spends more than it takes in, it puts a burden on current and future taxpayers to make up the difference, since the governments primary income source is what it collects from the taxpayers.
 
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dukecola

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If you could get some decent solar panels on the roof/ bed rack that would charge the platform batteries it would help out on the range aspect as it would be constantly charging, there are some decent systems out there that could work. Basically stop for lunch for an hour, and get a recharge (albeit slight) but make it more feasible to own a fully E JT.

IMHO
You can never get enough solar panels on a vehicle to charge. You'd need at least 1600w steady just to run the onboard charger. In reality, you'd need even more kw as you would have efficiency losses in your DC-AC inverter, and also losses from the panels (they don't operate at 100%). Then, you'd have to have all panels in the array facing the sun at the perfect azimuth and angle. This is just not possible.
 

Mr._Bill

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When you own an all electric vehicle, you learn about Chargepoint, Plugshare, and other apps to locate charging stations. It's not as critical for hybrid owners, but an available option. Many Malls, Colleges, City Buildings, and similar places have free charging stations available to use. Pay to use stations are popping up at Gas Stations and Restaurants. Look for free charging stations when using your electric Jeep to go shopping or run errands, and extend your electric range at low or no cost to you.
 

dukecola

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When you own an all electric vehicle, you learn about Chargepoint, Plugshare, and other apps to locate charging stations. It's not as critical for hybrid owners, but an available option. Many Malls, Colleges, City Buildings, and similar places have free charging stations available to use. Pay to use stations are popping up at Gas Stations and Restaurants. Look for free charging stations when using your electric Jeep to go shopping or run errands, and extend your electric range at low or no cost to you.
Agree. I've had EVs for 10 yrs, and have 2 now, a motorcycle and a car. Plugshare and the rest of the apps are essential. Charge stations are popping up everywhere. Back in 16', when I got my motorcycle, they were fairly scarce. Had to beg to use someone's 120v outlet on occasion. Not anymore though. However, with the large ranges late model ev's have now, unless someone is taking a very long road trip, in everyday use you'd never need to use one of these stations, just charge at home. I've never charged my car outside of the home. The 250mi range is plenty. As a side, just saw yesterday, RAM will have a full EV truck with 400mi range in next couple yrs.

 

 
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