Loose Steering?

[Oscar Indy]

ok, you got me on the qtech aluminum front bumper which is pretty light. 86lbs minus the stock bumper weight. I also agree with you about alignment rack, that’s why I payed another shop to do what the dealer said they did. Not only do you have to trust the machine, but you have to trust that the idiot back there is going to give enough of a $hit to actually adjust anything that is out of spec.

I've seen litteraly hundreds of Jeeps be green on the rack and wander everywhere on the road. The factory setting is roughly a 16th of an inch. I've had the best results using 1/8th instead. Especially with mud tires.
I have used a tape measure to set hundreds of tow and had to redo my own several times from bending it off-road before I went to an unbendable tie rod. My tool kit for offroading includes a tape measure for this very reason.

Every solid axle and 33in plus tires I've ever done has prefered 1/8th to the 1/16th. You wouldn't think that little of a difference matters but it does.
That little bit of weight up front probably doesn't matter but if it sagged a little then your caster is potentially out of spec which can cause some wander but honestly is the least likely culprit.

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[Scrubb84]

An independent shop doesn't have a horse in this race so is less likely to say "it's a Jeep thing" which the poll I took an image of and posted here should also show - it's not "a Jeep thing".
Bet the difference in the bumper is not as great as the difference in the weight of some of the drivers here LOL

Yea. The bumper, or overall weight gains for that matter, have ZERO effects on this issue. PERIOD. Pretty sure the stock bumper was on there when I drove it the first 500 miles.

 

[Oscar Indy]

Yea. The bumper, or overall weight gains for that matter, have ZERO effects on this issue. PERIOD. Pretty sure the stock bumper was on there when I drove it the first 500 miles.

Which leaves PSI and toe setting that have to be ruled out.

Get a tape measure and see for yourself if the front is 1/8th.
If that's on.
Pressure. If the chalk test is good then I'll concede your steering box may be wonky.

 

[4esop]

That little bit of weight up front probably doesn't matter but if it sagged a little then your caster is potentially out of spec which can cause some wander but honestly is the least likely culprit.

I have intermittent loose steering. My cross caster is out of spec. The alignment docs say there is no caster adjustment. What do I do in this situation?

 

[Oscar Indy]

I have intermittent loose steering. My cross caster is out of spec. The alignment docs say there is no caster adjustment. What do I do in this situation?

Caster is adjustable if you buy control arms. Either front uppers or front lowers can be used to adjust camber.

How much, if any lift and what are the symptoms.

I ask because caster being out of spec is usually not a flighty issue.
Caster will affect the vehicles ability to return to center. Drive in a circle. Let go of the wheel. If it self corrects to straight caster is good. If it stays turning not enough caster. If you have to muscle it turn could be too much caster.

 

[4esop]

Caster is adjustable if you buy control arms. Either front uppers or front lowers can be used to adjust camber.

How much, if any lift and what are the symptoms.

I ask because caster being out of spec is usually not a flighty issue.
Caster will affect the vehicles ability to return to center. Drive in a circle. Let go of the wheel. If it self corrects to straight caster is good. If it stays turning not enough caster. If you have to muscle it turn could be too much caster.

I have a stock Overland that I put slightly larger tires on. There is no lift.

The main symptom I see is that I have a dead zone in the steering that comes and goes. First I had to air down my tires to 38 PSI (came at 44 from dealer). Then I would notice the dead zone only at higher speeds (65+) on the highway. When I upgraded my tires from 255/70R18 to 265/70R18 - the issue became much less severe. Now I only notice it when terrain is uneven like a lane that has overlapping pavement or a bigger slope than normal. In these situations I notice the same dead zone that others have complained about. It was particularly dangerous a few times on a long trip I took where construction had narrowed the lanes and left them uneven. Every time I would pass a truck I was seriously stressed because you get a lot of action as soon as you get out of the dead zone. On normal roads I can go 95 and don't even notice an issue. I would also note that colder temps also started when my steering improved. So there are 2 variables.

When I got my new tires at a shop they told me there was an odd wear pattern on the outside of the front right tire (only 2000 miles on it). I was going on a trip and could only find dealers to do an alignment so I went to a dealer and they said everything was in spec and gave me a print out. It wasn't until I was looking at it again this week that I realized that while right and left caster are in spec individualy, they are 0.6 apart so the cross caster is not in the spec they showed me. I called the dealer and they even sent me the alignment routine from their manual and it says there is no caster adjustment. So could something be bent already? Is there anything I could check or have a dealer check?

Edit: I'll check the steering return to center this afternoon and update this.

 

[Oscar Indy]

I have a stock Overland that I put slightly larger tires on. There is no lift.

The main symptom I see is that I have a dead zone in the steering that comes and goes. First I had to air down my tires to 38 PSI (came at 44 from dealer). Then I would notice the dead zone only at higher speeds (65+) on the highway. When I upgraded my tires from 255/70R18 to 265/70R18 - the issue became much less severe. Now I only notice it when terrain is uneven like a lane that has overlapping pavement or a bigger slope than normal. In these situations I notice the same dead zone that others have complained about. It was particularly dangerous a few times on a long trip I took where construction had narrowed the lanes and left them uneven. Every time I would pass a truck I was seriously stressed because you get a lot of action as soon as you get out of the dead zone. On normal roads I can go 95 and don't even notice an issue. I would also note that colder temps also started when my steering improved. So there are 2 variables.

When I got my new tires at a shop they told me there was an odd wear pattern on the outside of the front right tire (only 2000 miles on it). I was going on a trip and could only find dealers to do an alignment so I went to a dealer and they said everything was in spec and gave me a print out. It wasn't until I was looking at it again this week that I realized that while right and left caster are in spec individualy, they are 0.6 apart so the cross caster is not in the spec they showed me. I called the dealer and they even sent me the alignment routine from their manual and it says there is no caster adjustment. So could something be bent already? Is there anything I could check or have a dealer check?

Edit: I'll check the steering return to center this afternoon and update this.

So cross caster is not something that can be adjusted. Typically when we set caster we set it on the driver side only. This is because the passenger side C gusset is welded on with a couple more degrees of caster. They do this to account for the pull generated by turning the different length driveshafts.

What size tires are you running currently and what kind of air pressure are you putting in them?
The first step would be doing a chalk test. If you notice it more at highway speeds it could be because the tires are heating up and giving you less contact patch. For my JT on 37s I have to run 26 cold to keep it below 30 when warm. at 30 warm they wander like crazy

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I'll bite - what do different length driveshafts have to do with it since they spin at the same speed. I can show caster specs of dozens of 4x4 trucks and even cars - and dealt with hundreds of driveshafts over the years - no issue with length. If one is turning 100 rpm so is the other.
Please explain how different length driveshafts create a pull.
Since the front driveshaft isn't even spinning when in 2wd mode, it's out of the question.

Unless we are talking axles, then you have some drag on the left as it must spin the carrier side gears - as well as the disconnected right axle stub. The faster you go, the more effort on the left wheel to spin those gears and that right axle stub in the carrier.
The right wheel is only having to turn a short shaft, not connected to anything, just spinning idle in the right axle housing.

 

[4esop]

So cross caster is not something that can be adjusted. Typically when we set caster we set it on the driver side only. This is because the passenger side C gusset is welded on with a couple more degrees of caster. They do this to account for the pull generated by turning the different length driveshafts.

If you can set caster on a single side, you should be able to adjust cross caster as it's just the difference between the two sides. I have 5.2 left and 4.6 right. Is there a way to adjust it? Setting drivers side to 5.1 would put it in spec, but I'd rather it be 4.6 on both.

What size tires are you running currently and what kind of air pressure are you putting in them?

The tires are 32.6 in diameter (0.5 in diameter and 0.4 in width bigger than stock. I have them at 38.

I tried driving in a circle and the wheel does not fully recenter - it always ends up at just beyond the edge of the dead zone. This leaves it drifting to the side that I was turning on.

 

[TLife]

If you can set caster on a single side, you should be able to adjust cross caster as it's just the difference between the two sides. I have 5.2 left and 4.6 right. Is there a way to adjust it? Setting drivers side to 5.1 would put it in spec, but I'd rather it be 4.6 on both.

Adjusting caster requires adjustable control arms, the stock control arms are not adjustable. There is no way to adjust caster with the stock components.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If you can set caster on a single side, you should be able to adjust cross caster as it's just the difference between the two sides. I have 5.2 left and 4.6 right. Is there a way to adjust it? Setting drivers side to 5.1 would put it in spec, but I'd rather it be 4.6 on both.


The tires are 32.6 in diameter (0.5 in diameter and 0.4 in width bigger than stock. I have them at 38.

I tried driving in a circle and the wheel does not fully recenter - it always ends up at just beyond the edge of the dead zone. This leaves it drifting to the side that I was turning on.

Personally, with the change in tires being obviously a bit wider and slightly taller, I'd reduce the pressure a bit, slowly, see where you are.
The larger width alone would say lower the pressure. If those were on mine I'd be running under 38

 

[4esop]

Adjusting caster requires adjustable control arms, the stock control arms are not adjustable. There is no way to adjust caster with the stock components.

So if it is out of spec is a control arm out of spec or bent in some way? Could I request the dealer replace them? Does getting a lift replace the control arms? I have been wanting to get a 2'' lift but have been hesitant to change too many variables due to the steering issues.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

So if it is out of spec is a control arm out of spec or bent in some way? Could I request the dealer replace them? Does getting a lift replace the control arms? I have been wanting to get a 2'' lift but have been hesitant to change too many variables due to the steering issues.

A lift will change caster. I believe a 2" is about all you want without other control arms - the uppers are shorter than the lowers and swing in shorter arcs so as the axle moves down, the upper arm swings down and moves in xx amount in that swing or arc.
The lower is a much longer arm and is already slightly downward pitched but due to the length difference, swings a broader or larger arc, meaning as it swings down it won't swing in as far so the top of the axle housing will tend to be moved backward a bit compared to the bottom of the axle housing. (the whole thing moves back very slightly as the arms - the links or control arms, swing down as the body is lifted compared to the axle)
Tipping the top of the axle tube back gives you more positive caster - which is more stable.

Now I have not looked hard at the UPPER control arm or link - if it's above level, or straight forward then as the chassis is lifted or the axle pushed down then the upper arm would swing down as well and forward in its arc.
But if both arms were straight forward, parallel to the ground, or at least both had a slight downward angle going forward, then you would change caster.
I'd have to go lay in the snow and ice and see if the upper arm is level or above level at the front, or was lower in front like the lower arm.

 

[Oscar Indy]

So if it is out of spec is a control arm out of spec or bent in some way? Could I request the dealer replace them? Does getting a lift replace the control arms? I have been wanting to get a 2'' lift but have been hesitant to change too many variables due to the steering issues.

Most likely.... A control arm bracket is welded on out of spec. I've seen Jeeps vary dramatically from left to right and even vin's that were fairly close have slightly different mounting bracket locations.

In the past I've had the best luck with 6deg of caster on the driver side. You can't twist the axle to get the other side to match.

 

[spazzyfry123]

A video I made of my steering on a drive today. Looks like crappy quality converting it to a gif, but a decent amount of play I’d say

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