NPS cancels AWD vehichles ( probably always has). I agree with concept but not their verbiage . #Read

[Wolf Island Diver]

So does this rule apply to electric vehicles, like Rivians, as well?

They do not have a proper 4WD system, either. They do it with two or more electric motors.

That’s probably up to the interpretation of the Ranger. What does concern me, is that full electric vehicles are limited as to where their huge batteries can go, so they end up underneath the vehicle where they’re susceptible to damage. I think the 4xe is under the seat. But a full EV is basically one huge battery bank running the length of the vehicle. If that gets penetrated, it’s a massive fire, you can’t extinguish.

EVs are undoubtedly the future, long term, but like so many things we get way out over our skis, where regulations, taxation, infrastructure, insurance, etc., hasn’t caught up to what’s actually out on the roads. The other problem is that these private equity financed tech companies play fast and loose with basically everything from their stated specs, to cost to safety, data protections, etc.

I doubt NHTSA or the EPA places any kind of requirement on EV makers for off road levels of undercarriage protection for the EVs marketed for off road use. Like ICE 4x4s, it’s up to the manufacturer and consumer demand and the aftermarket. But the worst that happens if I smash my DEF tank or somehow my gas tank is a fairy limited spill or containable fire. It’s not a chemical bomb that can’t be extinguished. Rivian offers a reinforced skid plate as an option. Who knows if the vehicles not optioned with that are at risk off road.

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[SoK66]

No matter what the sales person will tell you “It’s just as good off road as any Jeep, trust me.”

 

[ZeeJay]

Every off road place I’ve ever been where ATVs, motocross bikes or SxSs were operating was a totally destroyed, rutted out, wasteland, devoid or vegetation around the trails. I’m kind of amazed that any National Park would allow them. The places I’ve see were in cordoned off areas on private, state or Forest Service land. I’m not sure how the feds handle adventure bikes which I see as more like cousins to the overlanding crowd than the motorcross folks.

We used to have a mountain bike race series in my city. Part of it was on a through-the-woods motorcross race course on our huge municipal waterworks and parks property. One year during a particularly rainy city-sanctioned motorcross race, they destroyed the woods so badly, they ended up banning everyone from the area including mountain bikers who had nothing to do with the damage. In most years it would take 6-8 months for the terrain to recover. You can still see damage from this race 20 years later.

In our waterworks property you actually can still see earthen mounds and ridges from the Revolutionary war. These guys destroyed a lot of that and made their own mounds in a single afternoon that still exist 20 years later. It’s insane how much damage those types of vehicles do.

You’d think the weight of Jeeps and other 4x4s would make them more damaging, but it’s the speed and drifting an all that crap. Unfortunately, while not necessarily destroying the trails, what the large vehicle users bring is massive amounts of trash in the form of beer cans/bottles, shell casings, human waste, household garbage and dumping.

In my state, the NPS is hostile to ALL off roaders.

That’s a very unfortunate reality. I know off road has always been a thing but for years it was minority, mostly nerdy gear heads figuring out what parts off a Chevy Tahoe they could stuff into a TJ.
I don’t know when it happened because usually by the time I become self aware of something, it’s been happening already, but off road went mainstream. I’m sure no small part to Reddit, Facebook, Instagram…you get the picture. How many new Jeep owners do we have now just here on this forum, guaranteed way more on the JL hangout. Have all the SxS, Toyota, Nissan, etc nerds hard at it now also.
It all went trendy, and what used to be what I feel was a somewhat self regulated hobby inhabited by a relatively small group has turned into an asshole free for all, everyone wants in on it now. It wasn’t all perfect obviously, but what I do know now is I’ve gone down trails that were once visited by 4WD trucks/SUVs only that are now absolutely wrecked from SxS orgies or as you said trash everywhere. Just more people involved with it and less common sense and self discipline. And Jeep crowd and other 4WD groups aren’t immune from the same stupidity either because there are more of them now. Fortunately a portion of the truck/SUV/Jeep crowd it’s just an expensive showpiece that looks the part but doesn’t participate. The threat is very real. Out west we have a gaggle of BLM land, and the feds have an itchy trigger finger just looking for any excuse to shut it down. My son and I ride ATVs a lot spring through fall. It’s civil and we stay on the road and always pack out what we pack in. Even though he is 8 he has driven the ZJ many times with the help of yoga blocks on the pedals. I’ve had him on purpose go up a trail barely wide enough for it to fit, waited until it was rocky and messy, then made him back down it using mirrors. He was frustrated why we couldn’t just turn around, but the lesson I told him is this is being responsible, if your going to wheel you stay on what’s here, can’t make it, tough shit now back out of it. He has learned to do 48 point turns on a trail and not so much as mangle a stray weed with his ATV.

 

[BourbonRunner]

I have friends who work in rural CO fire departments and they are terrified of EVs. When they catch on fire, they burn hot and long and are difficult to suppress. There is growing fear they will cause wildfires. So, that could be another argument for limiting their access, I suppose.

I bet. Here in the DC-Baltimore MidAtlantic Megalopolis EV fires are a real concern in parking garages. I've seen a couple though not many post signs saying no EVs because their design prevents the FD from getting to them to put the fire out safely. At least with sprinkler systems you can douse it with water. I've also seen what happens when one catches and torches the rest of the vehicles. We had that happen 2 years ago and the FD couldn't do a thing. Worse yet- it was in the adjacent garage to an FD station.

I'm not knocking the EVs but as @Wolf Island Diver put it so well- "we're out over our skis" on the entire situation for now. Eventually the tech will settle and the regs adapt but until then its completely uncharted territory.

 

[Sandman 4x4]

Ground clearance is not an issue with Subarus. Some of them have as much ground clearance as stock Wranglers.
The CVT on the other hand...

There’s an argument to be made that static ground clearance is one thing. But ground clearance is not just the highest point underneath! There’s approach and departure angle to consider. That’s so bad on most AWD’s especially Subaru, that I suppose it could be considered a “trail. Judgement” control. That if you can’t get passed a certain obstacle, then that’s it you have no business being there. I know the ground clearance under my Gladiator Sport S, with stock suspension and 34” tires might be lacking under a few points, but those are VERY HARD points, unlike those plastic and aluminum low/high points which have no protection under especially a Subaru and what there is was designed for letting air resistance get less obstructed.

 

[Pilsner]

Ground clearance is not an issue with Subarus. Some of them have as much ground clearance as stock Wranglers.
The CVT on the other hand...

Not really. Ground clearance measurements are not exactly a good representation of what they claim to measure. On an independent suspension vehicle, they typically measure at the diff, which will be higher than the diff on a solid axle. That lowest point is typically easily avoidable on both vehicles as it's between the wheels. What matters more often is the undercarriage in the middle. That is VERY much lower on AWD cars than on a real 4x4. In addition, approach angles on cars are not great and if you can miss the bumper, you'll still be dragging the belly. Then you get to the issues with the CVT and no low range and likely street tires. Those cars have no business on real trails.

 

[Artsifrtsi]

I agree that the cuv/awd type vehicles should be banned on trails.

A couple years ago we visited Zion Nat’l park. It was recommended to visit the Toqerville falls, and since we had rented a wrangler and my daughter/son-in-law had their 4x4 Ram, away we went. We had a great time at the falls and were there a few hours. On the back down the trail, we came across a Ford Edge with 2 blown tires, and apparently abandoned, so they could go get cell coverage, in the middle of the trail on a blind curve with cliff on one side and high berm on the other… luckily both of us as driver knew how to navigate the berm (Had I driven out then, I would have winched it off the trail, probably onto the berm). We went there again this summer, but drove the O’land out… had to winch a 2wd Toyota out of a wash she was high centered on to get by.

So, yeah… they do not belong, and should be banned/heavily fined!

 

[Sweetums]

I bet. Here in the DC-Baltimore MidAtlantic Megalopolis EV fires are a real concern in parking garages. I've seen a couple though not many post signs saying no EVs because their design prevents the FD from getting to them to put the fire out safely. At least with sprinkler systems you can douse it with water. I've also seen what happens when one catches and torches the rest of the vehicles. We had that happen 2 years ago and the FD couldn't do a thing. Worse yet- it was in the adjacent garage to an FD station.

I'm not knocking the EVs but as @Wolf Island Diver put it so well- "we're out over our skis" on the entire situation for now. Eventually the tech will settle and the regs adapt but until then its completely uncharted territory.

EVs have a lower per capita fire rate than ICE vehicles, the problem is the intensity of the fire and that it can't be put out with conventional means.

 

[PBCounty]

EVs have a lower per capita fire rate than ICE vehicles

Yeahhhh kinda. ICE numbers include VERY old vehicles where as EV numbers don't. Also, ICE catches fire when running or in an accident....EV is catching fire in your garage while you're sleeping.

There is a reason why many public parking garages are banning some EV's.

 

[Redleg37]

I'm wondering about my wife's Cherokee trailhawk.

I'm fairly sure its AWD and doesn't have a selectable low range. (It has some electronic off road and snow settings, no idea what those actually do.) It also has skid plates, 31" all terrain tires and a rear locker. My Jk Wrangler sport came stock with 29" and no lockers. The Wrangler would be allowed on these trails, the Cherokee would not.

 

[Sweetums]

Yeahhhh kinda. ICE numbers include VERY old vehicles where as EV numbers don't. Also, ICE catches fire when running or in an accident....EV is catching fire in your garage while you're sleeping.

There is a reason why many public parking garages are banning some EV's.

There are plenty of cases of ICE vehicle catching fire while parked, I can recall several recalls and safety warnings in my life telling people to park ICE vehicles outside until the repair can be done. The Grumman LLV is notorious for this, a crack in the reservoir drips onto the battery, shorting it, and causing a fire.

 

[Gvsukids]

I'm wondering about my wife's Cherokee trailhawk.

I'm fairly sure its AWD and doesn't have a selectable low range.

It does.
https://www.capitalone.com/cars/learn/finding-the-right-car/what-is-a-jeep-trailhawk/2961

 

[Redleg37]

It does.
https://www.capitalone.com/cars/learn/finding-the-right-car/what-is-a-jeep-trailhawk/2961

Good to know. We got it when they were still pretty new and took it on a trip with the local Jeep club. We went on the trail for stock or mostly stock wranglers and it kept up fine; the only real issue is that the hood was a lot longer so you couldn’t always see where you were coming down when you created a hill.

 

[Free2roam]

So how does that factor in to my wife's 4wd Honda element? It actually says 4wd on the back.

 

[Sweetums]

So how does that factor in to my wife's 4wd Honda element? It actually says 4wd on the back.

Does it have low range? Then it's AWD, regardless of the sticker.

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