Reaching out to those doing their own shock tuning?

[CrazyCooter]

Read through this whole tread. Reminds me of the days when I had a motocross suspension business www.ExxtremeMX.com I got bored of it, trained a friend, gave him the business and went to law school for a new challenge.
I definitely applaud everyone for tacking this. A lot of theories on here were right, some were wrong. A few comments...
Cody at SDi is great, Dan is a full on fanatic with suspension. Great place, I use to deal with them a lot.
Compression and rebound adjusters, they all have to be checked while out, sometimes they are completely closed and you still have 2 clicks to go, likewise sometimes they are fully open even when you have a few clicks left to go.
All shocks need to be vacuum bleed, point blank.
Changing oil weight and nitrogen psi is a bad idea, pick 1 oil and weight and stick with it, otherwise you will chase your tail.
Also a lot of overthinking here
Racetech class, not really a good idea to basic and advanced at the same time. Paul is a suspension genius, but it is best to just buy the book.
Shock dyno, is not really helpful here, people think it helps get the tuning down, it doesn't, that is personal experience. A shock dyno is best to get two shocks identical. And no building then the same doesn't always mean they preform the same.
The restacker program, won't help, way to many variables...
Every brand shock will require different approachs to valving because they are too different.
It is not like a KYB shock from a 08 CRF450 and a showa shock that are very close to the same.
But best advice, stick to one brand oil and weight. KYB shock 3w is not the same as Amsoil 3w...

Went through the Extreme MX website over the weekend and found it insightful. Like you say, this isn't necessarily rocket science for those who have a firm grasp on "hydraulic leaks", but it does take a bit of experimenting to come up with a great outcome.

I love the quote "Remember the best suspension you know is the best suspension you have ridden on "......This is so true! Also the term "Shim shuffler"........I have had someone in the industry tell me "You could just add your flutter to the stock stack, rebuild the shock, and send it.......People will love it because they don't can't tell the difference between good and garbage anyway".

Good thing I have integrity, the desire to make people smile when they drive their rigs, and promote safety out on the road!

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[JT1]

@CrazyCooter been following this thread since the beginning. Super informative! Thanks for sharing.
I do have a question though, or at least a request to clarify. You changed spring rates a couple times, and then each time had to revalve. Was the revalve to compensate for the spring rate, or because the shock was in a different part of it's travel (height of the jeep changed) or a combo of all of it?

 

[CrazyCooter]

@CrazyCooter been following this thread since the beginning. Super informative! Thanks for sharing.
I do have a question though, or at least a request to clarify. You changed spring rates a couple times, and then each time had to revalve. Was the revalve to compensate for the spring rate, or because the shock was in a different part of it's travel (height of the jeep changed) or a combo of all of it?

Thanks for coming along!

Yes, every spring change required a revalve of the shock if you want things to work properly. I went from the front OE diesel spring w/ spacer, Evo JK plush I had laying around, Clayton Gas, Clayton Diesel, and now back to Clayton gas....... In the rear I went OE w/spacer, OE w/ spacer/air bag, Clayton Standard w/ air bag, to Clayton HD w/ air bag.

Follow along with me here........A heavier spring when compressed will rebound/recoil with more force yes? That heavier spring will also compress harder because it's a firmer rate too? 1)The heavier rate I found to ride rougher because the compression valving curve was firmer than needed due the spring was resisting the compression/bottoming. 2) The additional recoil from the heavier spring forces the tire back to the ground after a compression event at a faster rate than a lighter spring making the chassis rise and netting a rougher ride too! The opposite is true for a lighter spring rate.......Too much rebound will cause the suspension to "Pack" and make the tire/chassis slam down to the ground after it catches air packing up into the fender, while not enough compression can make the tire skip off the ground or suspension bottom out. A tire off the ground is a loss of steering control, power to the ground, and braking!

Think about dribbling a basketball........Pretty easy on a smooth surface, but try to control it on a rocky uneven surface? We also don't want our tires to bounce like a basket ball becuse that is lack of control and power/braking to the ground.

So a guy running a Synergy front spring that is 95-120lb with a Fox 2.5 might feel pretty decent, but with Clayton 188lb or 216lb spring it will feel harsh. Not just because of the firmer spring, but because the lack of damping to control the event after a bump. Adding air to my rear air bags is a quick test........If more air makes the rebound worse, I need to add more damping.

I've pretty much narrowed this down to a simple thought process.......If the chassis gets upset DURING the event it's likely a compression problem. If the chassis is upset right AFTER the event, it's likely a rebound problem.

I SO want to be able to help everyone with every spring option, but there is not way that I know of to put out a great solution without literally buying every spring rate, installing/testing, and then selling that service. If I had a serious call for a particular brand/rate spring, I'd buy them and come up with tuning for both SDi and Fox 2.5's since I already own both?

Example of a company like Teraflex that make both shocks and springs.......I assume they tune their shock to work best with their spring rates which are on the light side considering many of a are overlanders. That shock cant work properly with a spring that is 25% firmer!

Something like a Bilstein 8100 or maybe the future BP51 that has rebound clickers "Could" possibly be a solution? I can't run 8100 because it only has one adjustable zone....If it had 3 zones, I might try those with the E-Clik resi's installed so I could have it all?

Right now I have a "Packing" condition on my YJ on the front axle which make it ride rough and I can hear the front tire chirp rolling over a speed bump while braking....The tire is momentarily unloading from from too much rebound damping. I tore into/modified those 5165's and went full experimental drilling my own piston bleeds and making some starter shim stacks. I've only been into those twice because I've been so busy working on the SDi's for the Overland/AluCab guys coming into the shop getting Clayton suspensions.

Hopefully that explains your question?

 

[JT1]

Thanks for coming along!

Yes, every spring change required a revalve of the shock if you want things to work properly. I went from the front OE diesel spring w/ spacer, Evo JK plush I had laying around, Clayton Gas, Clayton Diesel, and now back to Clayton gas....... In the rear I went OE w/spacer, OE w/ spacer/air bag, Clayton Standard w/ air bag, to Clayton HD w/ air bag.

Follow along with me here........A heavier spring when compressed will rebound/recoil with more force yes? That heavier spring will also compress harder because it's a firmer rate too? 1)The heavier rate I found to ride rougher because the compression valving curve was firmer than needed due the spring was resisting the compression/bottoming. 2) The additional recoil from the heavier spring forces the axle back to the ground after a compression event at a faster rate than a lighter spring making the chassis rise and netting a rougher ride too! The opposite is true for a lighter spring rate.......Too much rebound will cause the suspension to "Pack" and make the tire slam down to the ground after it catches air packing up into the fender, while too not enough compression can make the tire skip off the ground or bottom out. A tire off the ground is a loss of steering control, power to the ground, and braking!

So a guy running a Synergy front spring that is 95-120lb with a Fox 2.5 might feel pretty decent, but with Clayton 188lb or 216lb spring it will feel harsh. Not just because of the firmer spring, but because the lack of damping to control the event after a bump. Adding air to my rear air bags is a quick test........If more air makes the rebound worse, I need to add more.

I've pretty much narrowed this down to a simple thought process.......If the chassis gets upset DURING the event it's likely a compression problem. If the chassis is upset right AFTER the event, it's likely a rebound problem.

I SO want to be able to help everyone with every spring option, but there is not way that I know of to put out a great solution without literally buying every spring rate, installing/testing, and then selling that service. If I had a serious call for a particular brand/rate spring, I'd buy them and come up with tuning for both SDi and Fox 2.5's since I already own both?

Example of a company like Teraflex that make both shocks and springs.......I assume they tune their shock to work best with their spring rates which are on the light side considering many of a are overlanders. That shock cant work properly with a spring that is 25% firmer!

Something like a Bilstein 8100 or maybe the future BP51 that has rebound clickers "Could" possibly be a solution? I can't run 8100 because it only has one adjustable zone....If it had 3 zones, I might try those with the E-Clik resi's installed so I could have it all?

Right now I have a "Packing" condition on my YJ on the front axle which make it ride rough and I can hear the front tire chirp rolling over a speed bump while braking....The tire is momentarily unloading from from too much rebound damping. I tore into/modified those 5165's and went full experimental drilling my own piston bleeds and making some starter shim stacks. I've only been into those twice because I've been so busy working on the SDi's for the Overland/AluCab guys coming into the shop getting Clayton suspensions.

Hopefully that explains your question?

Yessir! Can you tell from the drivers seat without external video if a change went the right way?

 

[CrazyCooter]

Yessir! Can you tell from the drivers seat without external video if a change went the right way?

Yes I can NOW, but sometimes video is also VERY helpful......That took a lot of time to learn though.....this past 16 months has been a super steep learning curve! I've been doing drivabilty work on vehicles for at least the past 25 years of my career, so you could say my butt is pretty trained.

Every time I go out on a trip with a different type of terrain, I come home with more notes and a little revision I want to make to my shocks that will trickle down to the future client. This last trip I found that driving over longer sections of broken concrete on the I15 at 75mph created a funky high speed rebound condition I needed to mellow out to improve both control and comfort. I also noted that I wanted a touch more rear low speed rebound.

I've literally driven 1000's of vehicles ranging from Motorcycles, SXS's Autos, pickups, class 4-8 trucks, busses, and motorhomes ranging from the little Toyota to the 45' tour bus. I've towed 1-3 axle tag trailers, double tag trailers, 1-4 axle 5th wheels, 5th wheel towing second tag trailer, and motorcycles towing a trailer over some of the best and worst terrain.

Most of my career I've been limited on what is available off the shelf and had to work within those parameters. Now that I took on this shock tuning endeavor, it has opened up unlimited possibilities for both my business and clients! I just had a guy contact me about shocks for his 3500 Duramax with a huge slide in camper that weighs right at 16,000lb! There isn't a shock off the shelf anywhere that will damp that situation properly? Might be working with him in the future......

 

[dayusmc]

@CrazyCooter
Not sure if I understand what you are saying packing " The tire is momentarily unloading from too much rebound damping". Packing is when the shock does not rebound fast enough on the rebound stroke. So the shock does not rebound all the way before hitting the next upstroke (Bump), with a series of bumps in a row (the whoops section in motorcross) the shock goes lower and lower in the stroke when hitting each bump. This causes the shock to bottom out because and is very harsh... Packing is commonly misdiagnosed as the compression valving being too stiff or the spring rate being too high.
Usually spring rates are set for a certain weight, with race cares that rate would not be for ride height. With our trucks we (not everyone) are also using spring rate for ride height, something that messes with too many other variables. Dampening (valving) is used to achieve the what the vehicle does in certain situations. Spring rates really should be used for the weight of the vehicle and all the gear on it, I understand we can't do it for just that here. But this all reminds me of when air forks came out for dirtbikes (almost all gone now except for KTM), everyone thought they were going to be great because they thought they could "tune" their suspension by just changing the air pressure - Not So...

 

[CrazyCooter]

@CrazyCooter
Not sure if I understand what you are saying packing " The tire is momentarily unloading from too much rebound damping". Packing is when the shock does not rebound fast enough on the rebound stroke. So the shock does not rebound all the way before hitting the next upstroke (Bump), with a series of bumps in a row (the whoops section in motorcross) the shock goes lower and lower in the stroke when hitting each bump. This causes the shock to bottom out because and is very harsh... Packing is commonly misdiagnosed as the compression valving being too stiff or the spring rate being too high.
Usually spring rates are set for a certain weight, with race cares that rate would not be for ride height. With our trucks we (not everyone) are also using spring rate for ride height, something that messes with too many other variables. Dampening (valving) is used to achieve the what the vehicle does in certain situations. Spring rates really should be used for the weight of the vehicle and all the gear on it, I understand we can't do it for just that here. But this all reminds me of when air forks came out for dirtbikes (almost all gone now except for KTM), everyone thought they were going to be great because they thought they could "tune" their suspension by just changing the air pressure - Not So...

Yes, the packing term I'm using is what you describe!

I remember back in the day on my TRX450R adding more rear rebound with the clicker to control the low speed stuff causing the rear to kick up on a jump, but it then the excessive high speed rebound became apparent in the whoops when you lost control wobbling from the tires being off the ground.

I have noted sometimes too little rebound being mistaken for too much compression and also the other way around. This is why I have favorite sections in my roadtesting to back up what I "Feel" needs to be done to correct the condition.

The biggest problem we have with our Jeeps in regard to spring rate slection is that there are on 2 manufacturers who will share that spec with us. The rest dumb it down or just flat wont give us anything leaving people with a "Try and See" situation. Measuring coil wire diameter, free length and coil wrap diameter can get you a close guess if you have them on hand? This is where the dyno comes in doubling as a spring rating device.

Is a long 110lb spring better than an shorter 188lb? Single, double, or triple rate? Depends in the intended use? A moto has a pretty consistent payload unless you are on an adventure bike and are a heavy packer. Most of us widely vary payload on our Jeeps?

 

[dayusmc]

@CrazyCooter
How are you determining packing from a single bump? Packing only occurs from a series. I guess you were just using that as an example or something. The scenario you described with the single speed bump would be caused by one of 2 things, too fast of rebound making the suspension "snap" back and unload the tire, loosing contact or deflection from too stiff of a spring or too much compression valving. Assuming it was not the spring, if you were going a normal (slow) speed over the speed bump it would be too much low speed compression, if you were going fast over the speed bump (way too fast for a parking lot) it would be too much high speed compression. With too much compression the tires would deflect (bounce) off the speed bump cause them to lose contact.
In any case if you have any questions you could PM me and we can set up a time to talk on the phone as this stuff is much easier to explain by talking then writing... I am always happy to help, I loved doing high end suspension and sometime miss it now, but we all eventually have to move on to something new. I don't get to the track much anymore, but when I go with my friend who took over my business I still enjoy helping set everyone's stuff up.

 

[rharr]

@CrazyCooter you may want to talk to these guys as they make their own springs to spec.
https://www.hypercoils.com/shop/uht...igure[hitsPerPage]=1000&configure[distinct]=1

find a option they offer and then do tunning around that.

I don't think a lot of lift companies are actually making their own springs they are contracting out a spring or having a custom one make under their name.

 

[CrazyCooter]

@CrazyCooter
How are you determining packing from a single bump? Packing only occurs from a series. I guess you were just using that as an example or something. The scenario you described with the single speed bump would be caused by one of 2 things, too fast of rebound making the suspension "snap" back and unload the tire, loosing contact or deflection from too stiff of a spring or too much compression valving. Assuming it was not the spring, if you were going a normal (slow) speed over the speed bump it would be too much low speed compression, if you were going fast over the speed bump (way too fast for a parking lot) it would be too much high speed compression. With too much compression the tires would deflect (bounce) off the speed bump cause them to lose contact.
In any case if you have any questions you could PM me and we can set up a time to talk on the phone as this stuff is much easier to explain by talking then writing... I am always happy to help, I loved doing high end suspension and sometime miss it now, but we all eventually have to move on to something new. I don't get to the track much anymore, but when I go with my friend who took over my business I still enjoy helping set everyone's stuff up.

I guess the spot I'm referring to about my YJ chirping the tire as a ditch where they cut the pavement, installed something, and paved over it without properly packing the sand/rock under it. It's more of a square edge drop where I can tell my front tires get light because they chirp while on the brake. Technically not packing since it's not repetitive, but no doubt it will be packing on a repetitive condition?

I appreciate your offer up for help! GlamisFan has been the only one really willing to give up what he knows to help the project and we can see where that let over the past year and a half.... He says he help create one monster, so he will be more careful next time!

 

[CrazyCooter]

@CrazyCooter you may want to talk to these guys as they make their own springs to spec.
https://www.hypercoils.com/shop/uht-coilovers?refinementList[rateType][0]=Dual&page=1&configure[filters]=category:"Ultra High Travel UHT"&configure[hitsPerPage]=1000&configure[distinct]=1

find a option they offer and then do tunning around that.

I don't think a lot of lift companies are actually making their own springs they are contracting out a spring or having a custom one make under their name.

At this point, I'm not sure I need a custom spring as much as we just need the manufacturers to share the specs on what they are selling. I know Synergy front springs at 110-120lb aren't going to work for overlanders and I suspect Claytons 188-216lb fronts won't be ideal for people that are going to pound whoops all day?

I'm a ovelander and towing guy, so that's why I arrived with Clayton. If I lived in SoCal and ran the desert most of the time, I would have a much different setup.

 

[rharr]

At this point, I'm not sure I need a custom spring as much as we just need the manufacturers to share the specs on what they are selling. I know Synergy front springs at 110-120lb aren't going to work for overlanders and I suspect Claytons 188-216lb fronts won't be ideal for people that are going to pound whoops all day?

I'm a ovelander and towing guy, so that's why I arrived with Clayton. If I lived in SoCal and ran the desert most of the time, I would have a much different setup.

this link does offer free length, diameter, and rate options to give you some abilities to control what you are looking in their standard product line. Those 3 variables I thought were what you are looking for in a spring to be able to have consistent results.

https://www.hypercoils.com/shop/conventional-springs

They also provide springs for one of the big lift venders people here use which is a dual rate spring, so their back of house engineers should have some familiarity already with jeep products.

My point is they likely can work with you to point you to a already made product line within your specs that may work for you without having to beg, barrow or steal from lift mfrs for their spring info.

Basically cut out the middle man.

 

[CrazyCooter]

this link does offer free length, diameter, and rate options to give you some abilities to control what you are looking in their standard product line. Those 3 variables I thought were what you are looking for in a spring to be able to have consistent results.

https://www.hypercoils.com/shop/conventional-springs

They also provide springs for one of the big lift venders people here use which is a dual rate spring, so their back of house engineers should have some familiarity already with jeep products.

My point is they likely can work with you to point you to a already made product line within your specs that may work for you without having to beg, barrow or steal from lift mfrs for their spring info.

Basically cut out the middle man.

From a profit and client fulfillment standpoint, I need to develop shock tunes for common shocks and common spring rates that people are already running. I think I need to tackle Teraflex next as it seems that is the brand that people buy the most of from what I can tell? I've had quite a few people PM me asking if I could do Fox 2.5's for Teraflex.

I wouldn't even mind cracking open a set of Tera Falcons and working those over for the crowd that already bought them and they don't like the combination? Again I'm just trying to reach the majority of people and make them smile!

The people I have dealt with semi locally were overlanders and needed a spring just like what Clayton offers. I'm not really planning on having much local traffic as ALL of my shock work to date has been from people more than 250 miles far away from me, but mostly from other states. Doing some SDi's right now for a guy in Minnesota for a pretty high profile JT build that most of you will recognize.

People in my home city for the most part aren't buying suspension systems that I want to be involved in. Many are trying to figure out how to finance an RC spacer lift and some no name Chinese tires......That's just not something I want to be married to. Plenty of other shops that have the skills to bolt on a mediocre product, so I save my time for those who want something better and can't find it anywhere else?

 

[rharr]

From a profit and client fulfillment standpoint, I need to develop shock tunes for common shocks and common spring rates that people are already running. I think I need to tackle Teraflex next as it seems that is the brand that people buy the most of from what I can tell? I've had quite a few people PM me asking if I could do Fox 2.5's for Teraflex.

I wouldn't even mind cracking open a set of Tera Falcons and working those over for the crowd that already bought them and they don't like the combination? Again I'm just trying to reach the majority of people and make them smile!

The people I have dealt with semi locally were overlanders and needed a spring just like what Clayton offers. I'm not really planning on having much local traffic as ALL of my shock work to date has been from people more than 250 miles far away from me, but mostly from other states. Doing some SDi's right now for a guy in Minnesota for a pretty high profile JT build that most of you will recognize.

People in my home city for the most part aren't buying suspension systems that I want to be involved in. Many are trying to figure out how to finance an RC spacer lift and some no name Chinese tires......That's just not something I want to be married to. Plenty of other shops that have the skills to bolt on a mediocre product, so I save my time for those who want something better and can't find it anywhere else?

That makes more sense when focusing on your bossiness model, if you are just doing shocks and having to adapt to existing spring packages people already own then there is no point looking at a different spring vendor.

I had thought you were doing spring and shock packages for folks aka full conversions.

I have enjoyed this thread and apprciate your passion.

 

[CrazyCooter]

That makes more sense when focusing on your bossiness model, if you are just doing shocks and having to adapt to existing spring packages people already own then there is no point looking at a different spring vendor.

I had thought you were doing spring and shock packages for folks aka full conversions.

I have enjoyed this thread and apprciate your passion.

I really appreciate all of you that have followed along, offered input, and especially those who have taken a chance on me by buying my product. We have a video coming out real soon and hoping fro some great reviews from people I have done work for that will help move this right along.

My own suspension brand would be cool, but I just don't think I have the man power or the facilities to try and market a full system of my own. I'm almost 50yo and running out of steam even though I do enjoy a good challenge for my mind! I'm already thinking I may downsize my local operation and spend more time on this venture IF it takes off.

There are already so many great suspension offerings that have their strengths and weaknesses. I can work that to our advantage by offering a mail order solution? It seems people are blindly buying mostly based on favorite brand and what the influencers are using without really knowing if it will work right or not. The lack of spring data makes this roulette for the buyer.

Just for example......If I knew Eibach was 135lb, Tera was 142lb, and XYZ was 129lb, I could make one tune pretty darn nice that would take care of all of those by buing a set of Eibachs being right in the middle?

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