Scrambler (JT) 2 door/Extended cab

[Vegas_Sirk]

They still have to federalize the vehicle combination for sale. To think GM spent minimal effort offering a 2 door ZR2 is incorrect. They are also making the Bison in 2 doors. They know they can make money off the combination. Otherwise they would stick with just the ZR2. GM is notorious for penny pinching and won't even consider an improvement to a vehicle if it will cost them money.

Toyota also has a base 2 door. They specifically avoided a 2 door Pro model because they didn't want to bother federalizing a 2 door model which they specifically will limit production of. That's why they never made a crew cab or single cab X-Runner. They didn't want to have to go through the federalization process of adding a new body style to the trim.

Federalizing a vehicle is pennies compared to design and tooling. That's the point your missing. For them to make a 2 door ZR2/Bison all they need to do is crash test some. Not only would Jeep need to do that, but they also need to pay for a frame redesign, tooling for all the parts: cab, fenders, roof, frame, driveline, as well as retool the assembly line to handle the 2 door parts. You're taking the difference between probably less than a million vs tens of millions.

Also I would not be cross shopping a Jeep truck and Dakota. People who want a Jeep truck want it because it is a Jeep that happens to be a truck not a truck that happens to be a Jeep. Those who really want a truck and don't care about Jeep traits can go and buy Tacomas, Colorados and now Rangers and they do.

FCA wants its cake and eat it too. They don't want to make a 2 door Gladiator but they want people to wait and buy a 2 door Dakota. They shouldn't get their hopes up unless they are FCA faithfuls which to be fair are quite a few of them.

Dakotas doors won't come off. Dakotas won't fold their windshield down. Dakotas won't come with a manual transmission V6 combination (I'll bet on that one). Dakotas won't have a soft top. Plenty of differences between the two which exclude it from consideration many Jeepers especially considering if they can do without those things there are many great options they can go buy right now.


Well are they going to make one or not?

You may not cross shop and may only want a Jeep but you're a small minority of buyers. They made their Jeep truck. If its so important to have a removable top and doors then get the Gladiator. If its important to have a short bed then buy a Dakota. You don't have a choice as the economies of scale don't make sense for FCA to do anything but that.

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[Vegas_Sirk]

The better question would be outside of the fleet market what is the cab break out in sales units or percentages.

The reason why I say outside of fleet is that there are a lot of people who will buy large quantities of a truck based solely on price for trades (construction or delivery) where I don't feel like Jeep would fit in.

100% .... and thats why they are building the Dakota.

 

[2015er]

I just don't see the logic that suggests developing a whole new truck - a new Dakota - meaning cab, chassis, drive train, parts and parts inventory - is less expensive and more profitable than adding an extended cab configuration to what is now an existing truck line in the form of the Gladiator. Even the fleet sales of a Dakota just don't support that logic as the Dakota is a late entrant into the fleet market that already has the well-established Colorado and now the Ranger. Therefore, if the Dakota does get a green light for production for a 2022 model year - the Colorado and Ranger will have long been on the market by then.

 

[Karnivoolfan]

Federalizing a vehicle is pennies compared to design and tooling. That's the point your missing. For them to make a 2 door ZR2/Bison all they need to do is crash test some. Not only would Jeep need to do that, but they also need to pay for a frame redesign, tooling for all the parts: cab, fenders, roof, frame, driveline, as well as retool the assembly line to handle the 2 door parts. You're taking the difference between probably less than a million vs tens of millions.

For that truck is probably slightly more than a million because all of those suspension components have to be certified and it has to be evaluated for safety for every single combination. Also the different bed lengths means they require to crash test each size. A million is a lot of money that's why Toyota won't build a 2 door Pro or crew cab long bed. As a former Toyota tech, I think I still hear Taco boys screeching in the distance about that. That's why GM won't build a single cab ZR2 of any sort.

That's the point you're missing. GM wouldn't spend a freaking dime if they don't think they couldn't make money on it many times over. GM isn't a charity. They don't lose money on trucks. Cars are a different story.....

FCA is hoping they can sell a freaking Dakota to guys who really want a 2 door Gladiator. Good luck with that. If FCA isn't going to give them what they want which is fine then what makes them think they will be worthy of their business with a Dakota when the "mid sized truck" market is one of the hottest classes around. Hell it is not a given that the Gladiator will succeed. It could flop big time. I for one wouldn't mind that. Imagine those prices for the Gladiator 30 years from now.

 

[Karnivoolfan]

I just don't see the logic that suggests developing a whole new truck - a new Dakota - meaning cab, chassis, drive train, parts and parts inventory - is less expensive and more profitable than adding an extended cab configuration to what is now an existing truck line in the form of the Gladiator. Even the fleet sales of a Dakota just don't support that logic as the Dakota is a late entrant into the fleet market that already has the well-established Colorado and now the Ranger. Therefore, if the Dakota does get a green light for production for a 2022 model year - the Colorado and Ranger will have long been on the market by then.

Hey hey now Jeep won't spend the money to tool their plant to build a 2 door version of the Gladiator for you.

Instead they will build a whole new truck tooling, federalization, research and testing that they want you to buy instead. Remember FCA was bailed out too.

 

[jeepinjon]

If the Gladiator uses the same frame as the Ram Dakota I could see it being more likely at that point in time for a 2 door Gladiator (assuming they offer a 2 door Dakota). I don't have a crystal ball, but the entire auto industry is really working towards as much standardization of parts to reduce development and inventory part costs.

 

[Vegas_Sirk]

I just don't see the logic that suggests developing a whole new truck - a new Dakota - meaning cab, chassis, drive train, parts and parts inventory - is less expensive and more profitable than adding an extended cab configuration to what is now an existing truck line in the form of the Gladiator. Even the fleet sales of a Dakota just don't support that logic as the Dakota is a late entrant into the fleet market that already has the well-established Colorado and now the Ranger. Therefore, if the Dakota does get a green light for production for a 2022 model year - the Colorado and Ranger will have long been on the market by then.

The development for the Dakota will be more expensive then designing a 2 door, however, they will be cheaper to produce and are targeted for a lower price point. Fleet sales are where money is made in volume, not per unit profit. A Dakota will not have solid axels, will not have an expensive transfer case, will not have skid plates, will not have removable doors and tops, and the cost associated with making a convertible happen. The fleet buyer dosen't care about any of that stuff.

 

[Mr_baker4420]

Actually it isn't as ridiculous as you think, GM doesn't sell the ZR2 and Bison in 2 door simply because they have the lower models. They sell them because they know they can sell and make money off of them and they do just like the crew cab does. If they didn't think they could make money off of them they would just build the ZR2 and Bison in crew cab only and call it a day like Toyota does for the TRD Pro Tacoma.

GM isn't obligated to build a 2 door ZR2 and they don't do it out of obligation. Obviously Jeep isn't obligated to build a 2 door Gladiator either but they invested quite a bit of money into despite parts binning and sharing here and there with the JLU and Ram 1500.

All in all, if Jeep won't build a 2 door the ZR2 is a great choice and in general it is better than the Jeep out of the factory. The only reason why I won't buy one is because it is automatic only. I rather have a worse truck in order to shift my own gears.

Now perhaps you would say they don't want to step on the upcoming Dakota's toes with a 2 door model. I get it but if they think Jeep buyers are the same as Dakota buyers then FCA is many things but intelligent is not the first thing to come to mind.

Bro apparently you didn't understand what I was trying to say. They aren't building 2 door zr2s . A zr2 isn't a truck. It's a package. They aren't building 2door zr2s, rather they are adding zr2 features to an existing 2 door truck. I'm not saying jeep won't eventually build a two door. I hope they do. Just pointing out your flawed logic. And your earlier post was correct, it doesn't pay to be an individual in truck manufacturing. As a matter of fact, I would like you to point out the MASS PRODUCED truck they would make you feel so individual. If you want an exclusive truck that nobody wants and nobody is selling, then go build one.

 

[Karnivoolfan]

Bro apparently you didn't understand what I was trying to say. They aren't building 2 door zr2s . A zr2 isn't a truck. It's a package. They aren't building 2door zr2s, rather they are adding zr2 features to an existing 2 door truck. I'm not saying jeep won't eventually build a two door. I hope they do. Just pointing out your flawed logic. And your earlier post was correct, it doesn't pay to be an individual in truck manufacturing. As a matter of fact, I would like you to point out the MASS PRODUCED truck they would make you feel so individual. If you want an exclusive truck that nobody wants and nobody is selling, then go build one.

It is your logic that is flawed considering they don't tear down an existing 2 door truck to add the ZR2 bits.

They have to build it from a frame just like my other model. No one is saying that it is its own model just like when people refer to a Gladiator but just say a trim level like Sport or Rubicon. That's flawed logic then if mine is which it isn't but I guess with Rubicon it could be a Wrangler or Gladiator but with the ZR2 there is only one vehicle.

BTW, a lot more people would have built vehicles over the years if the government didn't make laws protecting companies like FCA and any other. One that comes to mind is an amendment to the Clean Air Act which essentially barred grey imports until the vehicle is 25 years old protecting the companies by not having to compete with the world for the US but MBUSA was behind that one to be fair. Point being tell the government to allow people to build their own shit that they will use personally before telling people to build their own stuff.

I personally am apathetic on a 2 door Gladiator. I just think it is real rich when it comes to their strategy.

 

[Karnivoolfan]

I just don't see the logic that suggests developing a whole new truck - a new Dakota - meaning cab, chassis, drive train, parts and parts inventory - is less expensive and more profitable than adding an extended cab configuration to what is now an existing truck line in the form of the Gladiator. Even the fleet sales of a Dakota just don't support that logic as the Dakota is a late entrant into the fleet market that already has the well-established Colorado and now the Ranger. Therefore, if the Dakota does get a green light for production for a 2022 model year - the Colorado and Ranger will have long been on the market by then.

Yeah FCA expects to make inroads with Dakota lol. It's going to be a bust unless they are trying to time with the next generation of the current trucks which may be true for the Colorado but no so for the Ranger. They are entering the game far too late. However Dakotas has always played second fiddle to the Ranger and S-10/Colorado/Canyon.

I did quite like the 2nd gen 4.7 4x4 5 spd. Fun little truck for sure. You are absolutely right. They are trying to play in a fleet field that companies have already chosen their vehicles. Companies with fleets needing these little trucks are very dedicated to one brand. If that brand is reliable and proves itself well. They usually don't jump ship to a different company unless that manufacturer gave them some lemons which does happen fairly often considering how many companies with fleets are our there. My old company swapped their whole fleet of Colorados for Frontiers.

Dodge Dakota: The official Jeb "Please Clap" Bush of midsized trucks.

 

[drogers]

I just read an article in "Automotive News" regarding Silverado pickup sales at GM that said for 2019 they expect 60% of sales to be in crew cabs a far cry from 90-95%. GM is making money on the extended cabs and two doors which constitute the remaining 40%. To limit itself to crew cab - Jeep is bypassing s significantly profitable section of the market.

Hah - wow, couldn't be more wrong. Chevy doesn't even sell a 2 door Silverado - they have double cabs and crew cabs. No extended cab, no 2 door. A double cab silver has a cab as long as or longer than a Galdiator, so you're not exactly making your case here.

All you've inadvertently highlighted is the fact that one of the best selling trucks in the country has stopped selling in 2 door form..

 

[Mr_baker4420]

Yeah FCA expects to make inroads with Dakota lol. It's going to be a bust unless they are trying to time with the next generation of the current trucks which may be true for the Colorado but no so for the Ranger. They are entering the game far too late. However Dakotas has always played second fiddle to the Ranger and S-10/Colorado/Canyon.

I did quite like the 2nd gen 4.7 4x4 5 spd. Fun little truck for sure. You are absolutely right. They are trying to play in a fleet field that companies have already chosen their vehicles. Companies with fleets needing these little trucks are very dedicated to one brand. If that brand is reliable and proves itself well. They usually don't jump ship to a different company unless that manufacturer gave them some lemons which does happen fairly often considering how many companies with fleets are our there. My old company swapped their whole fleet of Colorados for Frontiers.

Dodge Dakota: The official Jeb "Please Clap" Bush of midsized trucks.

I apologize for my logic being flawed. I had no idea the different gladiator trims will use different frames... I'm now going to try to convey my point to a wall. I think I'll have better luck.

 

[DaveNH]

Yea but the issue is single cabs or even extended cabs make up less than 20% of total truck sales. Of that less then 20% the large majority are to Fleet sales (Think Auto Parts stores, Pest Control, HVAC, etc), so the "lifestyle" market that is buying for the convertible top is far from profitable based on the time, and money involved to make it.

Further, we really have no idea what sort of sales numbers that Jeep is targeting.

We've been throwing around 100k, which came from the same article where Marchionne said it would be intentionally expensive.

But looking back, what he said was that it would be expensive BECAUSE it's a lifestyle truck, likely to have sales BELOW 100k.

So that could be 100k. Or it could be even lower... say 50k. It would be hard enough to justify at 100k, let alone if their target is lower.

 

[DaveNH]

So the Gladiator is a lifestyle truck for only certain lifestyle people. Interesting indeed.

I keep seeing comments about "my lifestyle," and it seems to intentionally miss the point.

On the off chance that it's a legitimate misunderstanding, "lifestyle" in this case is akin to a category or market segment.

So in other words, it's not aimed at the work or daily driver market. It's aimed at those with the disposable income to get a big toy for their smaller toys, and for leisure and hobbies.

 

[2015er]

Hah - wow, couldn't be more wrong. Chevy doesn't even sell a 2 door Silverado - they have double cabs and crew cabs. No extended cab, no 2 door. A double cab silver has a cab as long as or longer than a Galdiator, so you're not exactly making your case here.

All you've inadvertently highlighted is the fact that one of the best selling trucks in the country has stopped selling in 2 door form..

Nope not wrong - I know they don't make two Silverados anymore...I was referring to the 2018 model year. Your wrong in that Chevy is continuing the extended cab (or double cab). For 2019 extended cabs (or double cabs) will continue and are projected at 40% of sales - a vital component to the overall sales figure. Your comparison to the cabs of a full size truck (Silverado) and mid-size truck (Gladiator) is also flawed. The single chassis of the full size trucks supports both the double or quad cabs as well as the crew cab the space is just used differently - loner bed shorter cab for double or quad cabs and shorter bed and longer cabs for the crews. That is why it is so frustrating that Jeep has left the extended cab option off the market. The hard and most expensive decisions have been made - the assembly line has been installed and retooled (the old JK line) and the chassis has been engineered and produced. The only remaining decision is to design an alternative cab that allocates the space available on the chassis in a different way - shorten the cab and extend the bed. This is the same approach taken across the mid-size and full-size truck lines by all the manufacturers - why Jeep decided to limit itself with the Gladiator to one single configuration makes no sense. All the investment in this retooled assembly line and chassis engineering and development to produce one single vehicle in one single configuration is illogical and minimizes the chance for profitability not to mention the opportunity lost to dominate the market with very attractive and alternative trucks (FC, Crew Chief, J12, extended cab Gladiator, etc.) - these have all been shown in Moab. These vehicles are valuable properties and their value should be maximized through using the basic platform that has been developed to bring these assets to the market.

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