Water in Transmission - what to repair

[adamjedgar]

Hi guys,
an extension of my other thread about water ingress in to 3.6litre gladiator 8 spd transmission (ZF 8 HP Torqueflight 850 RE - i think?)

exactly which components is the water going to damage?

In look at the schematics, it appears that the bottom end of the transmission will be affected.

However, are any of the clutches or gears and seals in the top really going to be affected if it isnt left to sit with watery oil too long?

What parts are most likely to get damaged by water in the transmission oil?

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[Hootbro]

At a minimum, your clutches are going to be shot. I have never seen anything short of a total rebuild or replacement bring back a water damaged automatic transmission.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

New trans and a good flush of the trans cooler and lines.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

At a minimum, your clutches are going to be shot. I have never seen anything short of a total rebuild or replacement bring back a water damaged automatic transmission.

What he said.

I've rebuilt dozens of different transmissions over the decades - once water is in you should (I'd say must if you want it right) totally disassemble it, open every nook and cranny, flush the torque converter, flush the cooler and lines.
Valve body will have water in it.

Believe it or not, with enough time, rust can form. (ask how I know)

Valve bodies are made with such tight clearances that a piece of lint from a cloth - lint you can hardly see, can lock up a shuttle valve. I've seen transmissions destroyed when a valve failed to move and it tried to go into two gears at once - busted the servo right off the inside of the case.

And although I've not had the pleasure of rebuilding one of THESE transmissions, yes, I have experience. I was able to skip a high school automotive course by explaining the power flow and all of the circuits and valve body operation of a Ford automatic.

If you short cut this, you may end up with a 4th transmission - but we do have a member here with a lot of experience with multiple transmissions in the same Gladiator so you'd not be alone.

If the engine was running when there was water in the transmission, then there's water through the whole unit. the pump keeps fluid flowing the whole time the engine runs. There's no "it's up high so it didn't get water" to it.
The engine drives the pump which circulates the fluid - with water - through the whole unit, torque converter, pump, clutch packs, valve body, you name it.

 

[adamjedgar]

Why would water damage clutches?

Also, is valve body and stuff like that in the bottom of transmission? Can that entire part of it be replaced as a single unit?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Why would water damage clutches?

Also, is valve body and stuff like that in the bottom of transmission? Can that entire part of it be replaced as a single unit?

Valve body is in the bottom, true of pretty much any automatic.
Best to take it apart to ensure no crud besides water got into the passages, check valves, and shuttles (which are steel). If there's water in there, what got in with the water? Any tiny bits of grit or debris?

If you want to take each clutch pack apart, piece by piece, totally clean everything and try to dry out the clutches and put it all back - go for it. It may be fine.
Clutch disks are relatively cheap, so since it must be taken apart to remove all traces of water, and that includes pulling apart the clutch packs and separating the clutches from the steel plates and letting it all dry, I put in new clutch disks.
If it's been sitting long enough, it's possible some of the steel parts could see rust beginning, not likely short term, but I do have one transmission on the shelf in my shop that has rust spots throughout its insides. It will be used for parts.

I've seen people drain, refill, run, drain, refill, run, about 3 times on older type automatics and drive away. Longevity? Can't say. Were they lucky? Likely.
Not me. It's coming out and apart - or getting replaced.

 

[Hootbro]

Why would water damage clutches?

It messes with the adhesive for the clutch material on the clutch plates.

There is no magic mechanic in a bottle chemical flush or product that is going to save them.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It messes with the adhesive for the clutch material on the clutch plates.

There is no magic mechanic in a bottle chemical flush or product that is going to save them.

Could be you've pulled down a transmission pan and wondered what those red or tan flakes were?
That's something I didn't even think of - the clutch or friction material letting loose.

 

[Hootbro]

Could be you've pulled down a transmission pan and wondered what those red or tan flakes were?
That's something I didn't even think of - the clutch or friction material letting loose.

I have only dealt with one transmission with water and that was a older Ford C6 transmission. Me and my grandfather tore it down and it was not pretty. Something about the water, temp and steam will just destroy clutches.

Not an expert by any means on this, but just know it is never pretty.

 

[adamjedgar]

It messes with the adhesive for the clutch material on the clutch plates.

There is no magic mechanic in a bottle chemical flush or product that is going to save them.

so let me get this straight...

a clutch adhesive designed for immersion in a petroleum based product (transmission fluid) is going to be affected by water?

That doesnt make sense...have you ever had any oil based adhesive let go from water immersion? I work in construction industry and i have never seen that happen on any oil based product or product used where its design to be immersed in oily environments.

I would argue its more likely the water will not provide adequite lubrication and that is what would damage/destroy the clutch material itself so i think im leaning towards that rather than adhesive failure.

Id like to see some actual research data on your claim please.

 

[whysoserious]

Perhaps the friction material used is hygroscopic. Once the water gets in, it stays there. That would seem to increase the amount of heat from increased friction since the transmission oil is no longer cooling the clutch enough. Clutch gets hot enough, adhesive softens.

 

[Hootbro]

so let me get this straight...

a clutch adhesive designed for immersion in a petroleum based product (transmission fluid) is going to be affected by water?

That doesnt make sense...have you ever had any oil based adhesive let go from water immersion? I work in construction industry and i have never seen that happen on any oil based product or product used where its design to be immersed in oily environments.

I would argue its more likely the water will not provide adequite lubrication and that is what would damage/destroy the clutch material itself so i think im leaning towards that rather than adhesive failure.

Id like to see some actual research data on your claim please.

Do whatever you want, I really do not care to get into a tit for tat of whatever rationalization you are trying to find here.

10 seconds of Googling will give you reams of data that water in the transmission is never good. Discount it, accept it, really makes no difference to me. You are the one with the problem transmission.

I am not going to pump sunshine up your wazoo just to make it more comfortable for you. I get it, a transmission replacement/rebuild will be a major expense. In the 5 stages of grief, you are somewhere between anger and bargaining.

 

[Stan H]

so let me get this straight...

a clutch adhesive designed for immersion in a petroleum based product (transmission fluid) is going to be affected by water?

That doesnt make sense...have you ever had any oil based adhesive let go from water immersion? I work in construction industry and i have never seen that happen on any oil based product or product used where its design to be immersed in oily environments.

I would argue its more likely the water will not provide adequite lubrication and that is what would damage/destroy the clutch material itself so i think im leaning towards that rather than adhesive failure.

Id like to see some actual research data on your claim please.

Look AJ it's like this the clutches are designed to be in Oil Not Water . End of story.
You want to chance it .. drop the transmission and torque converter drain everything completely stick it all back in and fill it up and then spin the roulette wheel and see where the Marble falls.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Oh, boy - it would take pages of science in a way - polar substances vs. non-polar, and it goes on and on. It really is chemistry.

But there are other reasons as well - water coming in hitting the hot steel parts will turn to steam - have you seen what steam does to some materials? (I have, having been around steam engines, using steam to form wood, and more)
The energy contained in steam is crazy.
Ever wondered why the fire department doesn't send fire fighters into a building and instantly start hosing things down at the same time? the steam would kill 'em, bake the alive.

But seriously, there's a whole science on adhesives and solvents.

I collect stamps - the old lick 'em stamps you could remove with water or steam (but almost nothing else)
The new self-adhesive stamps, water won't touch it, normal things won't, I but a special solvent to remove the stamps from the envelopes but even that takes a lot of effort.

Oddly, you ask about the transmission, then hate the answers.
Doesn't much matter so much on details of the matter - it's got water in it, it must come apart, at least most people who care would take it all apart, well, many most would actually take it in as a core and get a replacement........

 

[Rusty PW]

Do whatever you want, I really do not care to get into a tit for tat of whatever rationalization you are trying to find here.

10 seconds of Googling will give you reams of data that water in the transmission is never good. Discount it, accept it, really makes no difference to me. You are the one with the problem transmission.

I am not going to pump sunshine up your wazoo just to make it more comfortable for you. I get it, a transmission replacement/rebuild will be a major expense. In the 5 stages of grief, you are somewhere between anger and bargaining.

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