Reaching out to those doing their own shock tuning?

[ParatusExpeditions]

Updates were nice to read, great job!

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[dcmdon]

Thanks for your feedback Don!

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself and wonder if anyone cares what I'm trying to accomplish here.This journey has been so rewarding but maddening at the same time. The cool thing is that I've taken on and learned yet another discipline in the automotive trade after 30 years in the business. Im running out of time!

Cooter, I come from a motocross / road racing background. I understand suspension tuning more than most, but clearly less than you. Though, for me, it's always just been about turning an adjustment knob. I recently got a new mountain bike, the tenability is insane.

high and low speed compression and rebound damping adjustments on both ends. Crazy.

I'm fascinated that you are making your own shock shafts. It's great stuff.

I may have said that earlier in this thread I bought the Mojave because I thought the suspension felt the most well sorted out of all the Gladiators. IMHO. Most are over sprung (which is excusable for a pickup truck) and under-damped. I think the gladiator spring and damping rates are pretty close. Most obvious flaw is it needs more rebound damping in the rear.

Thanks again.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Cooter, I come from a motocross / road racing background. I understand suspension tuning more than most, but clearly less than you. Though, for me, it's always just been about turning an adjustment knob. I recently got a new mountain bike, the tenability is insane.

high and low speed compression and rebound damping adjustments on both ends. Crazy.

I'm fascinated that you are making your own shock shafts. It's great stuff.

I may have said that earlier in this thread I bought the Mojave because I thought the suspension felt the most well sorted out of all the Gladiators. IMHO. Most are over sprung (which is excusable for a pickup truck) and under-damped. I think the gladiator spring and damping rates are pretty close. Most obvious flaw is it needs more rebound damping in the rear.

Thanks again.

I was in the same boat as you until the range of adjustment wasn't good enough for what I needed to get done.

I've been screwing around with special applications on vehicles for 30+ years. I had a favorite KYB shock for a Class A Dodge motorhome that worked pretty good on Rams with slide in campers, another KYB for E450's that fit F250/350's with campers.

When I figured out how to tune the different shaft "speed zones" if you will......that was mind blowing! It appears most people just drop in a #90 compression stack and a #65 rebound stack and call it good, but multi-rate springs need a bit more playing to get it right. I'm still trying to master one area without screwing up another which is costly in time. This is why I need the dyno.....Then I can see that I reduced 10% to the 15insec area of rebound, but that change also resulted in a 5% reduction in the 5insec area which might lead to a wobbly ride again. I can see it in the graph and make that change BEFORE I re-install on the truck and go for a drive.

Spoke with CTW Automation this morning and It's looking like that's what I will purchase assuming this takes off. Trying to figure out how much force I need to test with? If I start doing RV's and class 8 trucks with 3.0's......Might need a BIG dyno? Wouldn't want to just buy what I need now if mtn bikes, motorcycle forks/shocks and other crazy stuff could be in my future. I just don't know how much time I will have to invest with the time that's left in my career. All I could think about 2 years ago was early retirement and now I'm thinking about selling my drivetrain biz and doing this in retirement? Hmmmmm

I wish I could take credit for making the shafts! I have the tooling to cut threads, but have never tried. My training in machine work is from 3.5 years of high school metal shop, YouTube, and skool of hard knocks. I sourced those shaft spares from SDi when I told them I was out of space for shims. This makes it much easier and quicker to make the swaps if I can just exchange after I mod them in advance? Some stuff is just quicker and easier to purchase from the mass producers.

If I see a demand for this work, I'll jump in and fill the void. It all comes down to what you guys need and are willing to pay for. As of right now....all I have is a couple sets of cool shocks for my own truck and a couple of sales to clients.

Thank to all of those who followed along, especially the ones who contributed and a big ?to those who clogged up the thread in the beginning with posts about how I couldn't do this. I'm getting the last laugh about right now...... ?

 

[ajkaz]

@CrazyCooter
Fyi, Spring rate tester
https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/367331-Spring-Rate-Tester?highlight=spring+rate

all you need is distance compressed and force exerted to figure out rate.

I ride a bunch of stuff, single track, dual sport, and adv.

I have been focusing on single track as it's harder and slower so i get to work on skills and keep the speed related injuries down.

got a beta 390 that is a great technical & ds bike when needed and a ktm 990r adv that is my do it all bike.

If you are thinking about a new bike, i have been a big fan of going smaller, just easier to ride and more forgiving. I would suggest something in the 350 range. The new ktm 450's and 500 are good and have a small bike feel unlike the older jap 450's but they can still get to be a handful in hard situations.

Not to get too far off track here, but I currently ride a CRF450L, awesome desert bike and great DS bike, especially for all the moto camping we do. But It’s just too heavy and cumbersome in the tight stuff and the on/off throttle is very fatiguing even with tuning. I am likely switching to either a Husky 350 or Beta 350, but I am entertaining the Beta 390 RR-S. How do you like the power delivery? I am looking for a less torquey more HP motor that loves to Rev. Not even considering a 501, as I’d rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow, just more fun to me. Ever get up here to run LAB2V?

 

[CrazyCooter]

Not to get too far off track here, but I currently ride a CRF450L, awesome desert bike and great DS bike, especially for all the moto camping we do. But It’s just too heavy and cumbersome in the tight stuff and the on/off throttle is very fatiguing even with tuning. I am likely switching to either a Husky 350 or Beta 350, but I am entertaining the Beta 390 RR-S. How do you like the power delivery? I am looking for a less torquey more HP motor that loves to Rev. Not even considering a 501, as I’d rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow, just more fun to me. Ever get up here to run LAB2V?

I really think a 350/390 would cover me as well, but I've ridden all the big stuff over the years and didn't have any issues with them. There is also a 501S for sale used locally that might save me a few bucks that is a similar build to what I would do.

Hard to justify a $16-17k build on a new one when I'm looking at $30k+ delivered for a dyno and tooling.......Maybe if my 1290 sells.

Are you traveling and camping off the small bikes?

Wish we had a Beta dealer locally!

 

[CrazyCooter]

Little update after countless revisions and test sessions......Now it's time for another tow test to see what got screwed up on that end in making the truck ride good unloaded and comply with the terrain.

As you can see the rain started and I got soaked airing back up! Might be another week or so before it's safe to run that section to get more vids.




I have made more changes adding in more low speed rebound for street manners and also the rebound flutter out the back still trying to get it to comply over that hump in the downhill direction. The rear HD Clayton springs take MUCH more rebound damping to control than than the SD's, so this obstacle has been tricky to get right. I'm now working on tuning the shaft speed zone on rebound, but without expensive telemetry and a dyno....this is proving to be challenging to my patience..........

I also had to do some more machine work on the shafts tonight as the addition of more shims has me running out of room yet again! The challenge here is that SDi only offers up to .015" shims (and only in certain sizes) where the Fox's I was working with before offers up to .020". One might think two .010's would make a .020", but that's not true.......it would take (8) .010's, (4.63) .012's, or (2.37) .015's to equal a single .020" shim. Right now the rear shocks have 26 shims installed (factory as delivered was 16 shims) and we're quite possibly not done yet? My Fox's ended up much the same way with 24 shims installed vs 14 out of the box. Is takes what it takes to get this right? Starts adding up at $1.50-2.00 per shim?

I was observing tonight that I need to order some new shock mounting fasteners as mine are showing signs of wear and last thing I want is the upper front shock nut in the frame seizing or pulling the threads?

I'm also looking forward to getting my outboard shock mounts installed and a 1" longer lower clevis up front to gain another 2.5-3.5" down travel and bringing the internal bumps in the SDi's more into play. Then I will ditch the Fox hydro bumps and eliminate 4 more items to service over time? Figured I better get this baseline dialed in BEFORE I add the lower mounts as that might change something in the valving requirements and not everyone will have those.

I'll keep you loyal followers updated as always!

#suspensiondirectinc
#eclik
#sdiracing
#actionaxle
#claytonoffroad

 

[ajkaz]

I really think a 350/390 would cover me as well, but I've ridden all the big stuff over the years and didn't have any issues with them. There is also a 501S for sale used locally that might save me a few bucks that is a similar build to what I would do.

Hard to justify a $16-17k build on a new one when I'm looking at $30k+ delivered for a dyno and tooling.......Maybe if my 1290 sells.

Are you traveling and camping off the small bikes?

Wish we had a Beta dealer locally!

For me its not so much about the 350 being powerful enough, its about riding “the shit” out of the bike and enjoying it. I dont have the ability to really hammer my 450, there’s a lot left there, I’m not very heavy @ 175lbs, I can really rip on the smaller displacement and ride where the engine is making the most power, it feels great. The 450 has so much torque that its not as manageable to really get into. Also loosing 40ish pounds in bike weight will help a ton in the tight stuff. The fatigue from on/off throttle on the big bike alone makes a huge difference on days I’m doing 200+ dirt miles.

Yes I can go a few days camping with the small bikes, I try to find long routes like BDR’s where I have minimal pavement to connect hundreds of miles of dirt. Pretty fun. I just have to watch what I pack so the riding experience is still great as well.

 

[CrazyCooter]

For me its not so much about the 350 being powerful enough, its about riding “the shit” out of the bike and enjoying it. I dont have the ability to really hammer my 450, there’s a lot left there, I’m not very heavy @ 175lbs, I can really rip on the smaller displacement and ride where the engine is making the most power, it feels great. The 450 has so much torque that its not as manageable to really get into. Also loosing 40ish pounds in bike weight will help a ton in the tight stuff. The fatigue from on/off throttle on the big bike alone makes a huge difference on days I’m doing 200+ dirt miles.

Yes I can go a few days camping with the small bikes, I try to find long routes like BDR’s where I have minimal pavement to connect hundreds of miles of dirt. Pretty fun. I just have to watch what I pack so the riding experience is still great as well.

I used to ride my 525 hard off road........but age has brought wisdom, the lack of healing quick, and low tolerance for pain. I still think riding my 1290R hard has larger risks due to the speeds involved, but I don't even turn off the traction control for some fun on the pavement anymore...... I'm hovering at the 240ish area so I can use a few more ponies, but I don't NEED it!

Speaking of 2 wheeled minimized camping.....Have you read any of Joe Motocross' stuff over at ADV? I have found him crazy amusing and great write ups of 2 wheeled camping......Here is one of his threads: https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/sacred-tales-of-desert-minimalism-spring-2021.1496515/

 

[CrazyCooter]

Some more progress this weekend.......A bunch more comfort on the rough paved roads, small off road chop, and heavy tongue weight towing areas without giving up being able to take a harder hit!

Overall the tune is now softer in all areas (Low, mid, and especially high shaft speeds), but I was able to turn up the "roll, brake, and turn" sensitivity settings in the "pro menu" to reduce body roll and brake dive while driving aggressively yet still maintaining the current comfort settings (Front: 40% Rear: 10%) for that nice strait line highway drive. This leaves head room for the driver to turn down a couple of clicks for more comfort if unloaded or turn up as needed for a load added and also turn up the "load" setting in the pro menu. IF SDi will just give us Jeep guys "BAJA MODE"! Not all of us are rock crawlers........

Videos at the "test spot" don't show a huge improvement over the last time, but I can tell you trail speeds have increased by at least 30% with more comfort and less bump use over Thursday and Saturday's tests.......Today I let a couple in a YXZ go ahead so that I wouldn't be hold them up, but within a mile they were pulling over to let me pass! Obviously the driver wasn't all that skilled or a huge clunky Jeep pickup wouldn't be running them down, but some dirt cred right here!

I'm still playing with that rear rebound........Maybe we're stuck with the rear tires hopping a little bit in order to control that extra 10% spring rate the Clayton HD rear spring added? I have few more ideas to try before accepting what is......That darn dyno couldn't be more useful in saving time about now...... I've logged over 400 miles in the truck in the past 4 days testing.......

I also located a set of front shock spacers I had kicking around upstairs for the front axle. I now have gained 2" more down travel and have brought the shock's front bump zone into play. After this tune is done, I intend to order the +1" or +2" clevis and install the outboard shock mounts which I envision will give me two diferent "bump stop heights". I will use the shock's bump for when I'm full twisted up keeping the 38's out of the fenders, but will use the bumps in the OE position set a bit higher so that I get more travel when the wheels are strait ahead. I figure the tires can travel into the fender farther when strait than turned? Following me here? 9.5" travel twisted, but 10.5" for those hits in the desert?






The first client to try this system out with my tuning dropped his JT off yesterday for the install of a Clayton 2.5" Overland Plus system w/ HD rear springs, SDi E-Clik Pro Shocks, 37" M/T AT's, Method 17x8.5" 4.75BS wheels, and a few other supporting goodies......He opted for the 1"+ front clevis and extended rear brake hoses so that I could set the shock's seal head clips to max out both front and rear articulation. We started out having him drive my truck around the general area over sections of road that annoy me, a rough potholed dirt road, an empty lanscape planter with square curbs, a sunken electrical vault hole, and a nice drainage dip in at the edge of our parking lot that makes a stock diesel JT slam the bumps perfectly every time! We then switched to his truck trying to duplicate the same speeds/conditions if possible (The drainage bump for sure and most other off road obstacles were done MUCH slower in his truck for obvious reasons). We played with different settings along the way and I think overall he was impressed.......but who wouldn't be after driving a stock Rubi with an Alu-Cab for almost a year? He plans to do a complete review of the job, so look for that in the near future.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Well....it's looking like I'm done with this for a while and will obviously do some more testing over time/distance with tweaks following.

I'm pretty sure I've reached the point of diminishing returns on this rebound situation without a different piston. Thinking what I'm running up against is the smaller 1.5" sealing shim SDi uses on the rebound side of the piston.......Fox uses a 1.6" and that allowed me to control the lowest shaft speed zone more effectively without making the rear pack during low/mid speed moments....Most important for the high spring rate, weight, winds loads, and loads carried up high as with a camper or RTT. King 2.5's from what I read on the net use 1.75" sealing shims on both sides of the piston which might be a better balance from a tuning standpoint?

I can definitely feel the improvement in traction over the small chop as I reduced the mid/higher speed rebound and the side hop over water bars mid corner is gone. I can tell a night and day difference traveling the entire 6 mile section of trail!

The videos show the improvement with the flutter design changes, but anything else I do to soften up the mid/mid high speed allowing the tire to follow the hump better takes away more low speed control. Since I'm an overlander that also tows heavy, I'm going to lean toward controlling the wind, top heavy loads, and reduce head bobble giving up a little comfort and traction in the whoops. We already have dozens of other tuners that setup up for the desert racing, so let them do that?

I'm also right at capacity on shaft space for shims again. 31 shims per rear shock now is the count. On the rebound side, I'm stacking (7) 1.55 x .015's at the bottom. It's looking like about $200 in shims to do the custom valving work.

Next on the agenda is to speak with SDi about the possibility of a different piston! Not sure if this could be as easy as a quick revision in the CNC programming or if it's more of an impossible feat for low volume part sales? I suppose sales to people that use their stuff like I do would be the driving factor?

Here's kind of a during and after testing set of vids. I had to wake up the local "Van Life" crew living at the test spot to get the early morning shots. Temp this morning was 27°, so had to drive a distance off road to get some heat into the shocks before I could hit it and even then the shock temp was only 56° at the time of this test. At 100°+ we will most definitely see more compliance, but will also give up some low speed control at the same time.



Vs. this morning





The important thing to me today is that I can now install this calibration into the current project JT on the lift and make the owner smile BIG when he picks it up!

 

[CrazyCooter]

Well I finally found one of you suckers to pay me for a Fox 2.5" tune......Sorry it had to be you @PackMule!

A little tweaking of the front bump spacers for a 1.75" gain in up travel, dynamic balance the front tires to smooth out the rest of his long trip, swap out the diesel springs to the gas 3.5 Clayton's, and re-valve the shocks with a little twist on the front rebound for the lighter springs.

Dean "smashed" the test "drainage dip" like an absolute animal much to my surprise, but we couldn't hear the King air bumps contact? He tried it again and the JT just took it like a champ! Wish it was still daylight for a video of that!

Felt just like my truck! He says he doesn't drive fast, but I have a feeling he will be driving faster without knowing after these mods!

3rd Gladiator at the shop inside of a week with Method 705s and all forum members? Was there a group buy on these that I missed?

 

[ParatusExpeditions]

There was indeed a deal couple of months back, I wasn't aware so many had picked those specifically, though. Are you counting mine? I kinda stayed in the parking lot

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/method-race-wheels-group-buy.61139/

 

[CrazyCooter]

Little testing before departure this morning. Dean was sandbagging me last night........He drives at a pretty good pace!

No jump videos.....I recommend we skip that since he was in "Tow mode" with the Sumos installed.

 

[PackMule]

Yup, and I didn't have time before the run to re-check all the mounting bolts for my Smart Cap to make sure I didn't loose it on the run! But good fun. I think I did get a little air on one of the double whoops.

Great run today Tony! And then pretty solid trailer haul afterward. I ran from Redding to about an hour south of Reno today pulling my camper trailer, and the tune worked really well.

Its great now to be able to have a tune on the Fox's where I'm only at a couple clicks for normal driving, a couple more clicks for trail running, and a couple more after that for pulling the trailer! Now I feel I have the dynamic range on adjustments to really utilize these shocks like they were meant to be, and exploit the full versatility of the Gladiator platform!

 

[CrazyCooter]

Yup, and I didn't have time before the run to re-check all the mounting bolts for my Smart Cap to make sure I didn't loose it on the run! But good fun. I think I did get a little air on one of the double whoops.

Great run today Tony! And then pretty solid trailer haul afterward. I ran from Redding to about an hour south of Reno today pulling my camper trailer, and the tune worked really well.

Its great now to be able to have a tune on the Fox's where I'm only at a couple clicks for normal driving, a couple more clicks for trail running, and a couple more after that for pulling the trailer! Now I feel I have the dynamic range on adjustments to really utilize these shocks like they were meant to be, and exploit the full versatility of the Gladiator platform!

I was just thinking about how your tow went with some more damping.......Also, I assume you added to the rear tire pressure above what we were running for the increased weight towing? Maybe to 27-30 psi?

I'm wondering if the security at Shasta Dam has noticed how money times I've passed through there in the last 3 weeks while testing and the number of times I've been accompanied by another Gladiator? Probably due for a full search soon.......

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