Pentastar power increase

[IanNubbit]

So I skimmed 90% of this page. Here's my little 2 cents

The 3.6 Mechanically is externally well built, without doing wild things like boost, the internals are good for 100k all day and are not really a limiting factor. There is ported intakes and throttle bodies in the wild for the 3.6, I'd guess they don't actually increase power though, while they COULD, that's not the limit here. One area I do see a room for improvement is the exhaust port/header design, certainly more flow could be made here with a head redesign, but realistically, probably only like 2-5% I'd guess. The VVL system does its job well and can be seen on graphs and in the pants. The one and only real improvement I could see to make reliable power out of the 3.6 is software. Now remember, Manual JT's still come with GPEC-2A not the -5, but guess what, no tunes. The market for unlocked ECU's in the 3.6 is definitely not as large as someone would think. Think about the 1.4T engine from the Fiat Abarth and numerous other models in the US and overseas, engine was so ready to make more power, especially with the multi-air system, it took nearly a decade for someone to start tuning them, and even then, still, almost every tuner went the easy route and just made the multi-air system a simple single lift duration tune. VVT and VVL in the 3.6 now, along with multi-stage oil pump, along with numerous other things alone make tuning them a nightmare, none of that to include that FCA does an amazing job encrypting drivetrain tuning (which is comical compared to their mediocre CAN network and how easy that is to understand). Long story short, I see ONCE tuning is out, most of the gains will be in where the power is, not so much the peak power (especially in the manuals). I'd pay good money for a tune that does nothing but make the pedal respond like a mechanical throttle, EPA to the wind lol. My fear is any power gains on this platform will turn into even worse fuel economy.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Tune is the place to start for obvious reasons. But for every change you make, you have to look at where the next weakest link is. Changes to the tune can only go so far and then bump into other areas preventing further gains.

Here's an example of how simple shape changes to exhaust ports increased flow roughly 20-25% depending on the valve lift used - the dogleg head design -
Look carefully at what was changed and what wasn't. The floor of the port was changed, the top in another area, but the to the right of the words "VIEW A" was not changed, a clear reduction was not removed.
So opening things up wide in all areas isn't always the answer. Shape matters.
It's called "dog leg" because the port on the head was changed from a rectangle to one with a bump out on the bottom.

 

[Flyin6]

Coil packs making more HP, ? “my truck needs more electricity!!” I rest my case about the aftermarket. Yeah, RIPP makes crapp. At least the folks here on this forum aren’t dealing with the 2013 Gen 2 Pentafail. I didn’t have the luxury of thinking about power upgrades. I was too busy taking my JK to the shop repeatedly to keep it running at all. Although maybe a nice supercharger would have finally blown all the remaining casting sand out of the block.

Of course I’m too busy trying to get a replacement fuel pump to think about deleting my ecodiesel. Fool me once Jeep, shame on you….fool me twice, 79 Series Toyota Land Cruiser .

FIFY

 

[Flyin6]

Tune is the place to start for obvious reasons. But for every change you make, you have to look at where the next weakest link is. Changes to the tune can only go so far and then bump into other areas preventing further gains.

Here's an example of how simple shape changes to exhaust ports increased flow roughly 20-25% depending on the valve lift used - the dogleg head design -
Look carefully at what was changed and what wasn't. The floor of the port was changed, the top in another area, but the to the right of the words "VIEW A" was not changed, a clear reduction was not removed.
So opening things up wide in all areas isn't always the answer. Shape matters.
It's called "dog leg" because the port on the head was changed from a rectangle to one with a bump out on the bottom.

Man do I know this!
Once upon a time, I owned a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang...cool car.
To make it perform better you had to close off about one-third of the intake port with epoxy by raising the floor. I did it on mine and made the car streetable.
On LS motors that I have built, it is about port shape, not enlargement, necessarily. I have massaged LS6 ports resting on top of the 6.0L block that flows more than the Huey engines I flew decades ago.
But in looking at the message from Hunter at Livernois, they have done zero port development work, so that discussion here is really mute.
I think I can pick up my 50 with a tune and the ported intake halves along with the bigger TB. That should keep the natives from getting restless inside the block and make me a happy commuter to my off-road destinations.

 

[Flyin6]

So, dumb question? Is it possible to swap the -5 computer for the -2?
Jumper harness along with a sprinkling of holy water and a blessing or two?
Livernois: Are you watching?
What say you?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Man do I know this!
Once upon a time, I owned a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang...cool car.
To make it perform better you had to close off about one-third of the intake port with epoxy by raising the floor. I did it on mine and made the car streetable.
On LS motors that I have built, it is about port shape, not enlargement, necessarily. I have massaged LS6 ports resting on top of the 6.0L block that flows more than the Huey engines I flew decades ago.
But in looking at the message from Hunter at Livernois, they have done zero port development work, so that discussion here is really mute.
I think I can pick up my 50 with a tune and the ported intake halves along with the bigger TB. That should keep the natives from getting restless inside the block and make me a happy commuter to my off-road destinations.

Crap, I'm preachin' to the choir - one that's singing waaay up there.

 

[LouisvEarlleJT]

Didn’t read the whole thread, so this may have already been mentioned, but if money doesn’t matter you could just LS swap it.

Custom bell housing adapter
Custom K-member/motor mounts
Custom exhaust
Junkyard 6.0

I mean, what’s another 20k? ?

 

[Flyin6]

Didn’t read the whole thread, so this may have already been mentioned, but if money doesn’t matter you could just LS swap it.

Custom bell housing adapter
Custom K-member/motor mounts
Custom exhaust
Junkyard 6.0

I mean, what’s another 20k? ?

I do not think it is all that easy
LS swapping JK's and even some early JL's was all the rage. Cheaper than a Hemi swap. But with this -5 computer system, I am not aware of any simple "swap kit."

Am I wrong in this?

I did not consider this for exactly that reason.

 

[LouisvEarlleJT]

I do not think it is all that easy
LS swapping JK's and even some early JL's was all the rage. Cheaper than a Hemi swap. But with this -5 computer system, I am not aware of any simple "swap kit."

Am I wrong in this?

I did not consider this for exactly that reason.

Idk, I was mostly joking because that is typically the suggestion for everything. Even home appliance repair.

Thinking on it more though, I would think you could get an ECU from the LS vehicle to work in lieu of the -5 unit.

Someone would need to be motivated and have a lot of time on their hands…..and probably also have relatively small hands cuz you’re going to be tracing a LOT of wires into tight spaces ?

 

[Flyin6]

Idk, I was mostly joking because that is typically the suggestion for everything. Even home appliance repair.

Thinking on it more though, I would think you could get an ECU from the LS vehicle to work in lieu of the -5 unit.

Someone would need to be motivated and have a lot of time on their hands…..and probably also have relatively small hands cuz you’re going to be tracing a LOT of wires into tight spaces ?

I think it is very unlikely that you could get Houdini to marry up a simplified LS ECU with the sophisticated mess we all have. Nope, sounds good but I'll bet is next to impossible.

 

[Mr._Bill]

There is a lot of pressure on the manufacturers to make it more difficult for the consumer to change the computer controls on the engine. Emissions is a big issue for the Overlords of the air. Just look at how aggressively they have been going after the diesel tuners. It won't be long before they come after the gasoline burners.

Why the switch to the newer, more secure computers?
Does Stellantis just want to keep the controls locked to manage warranty claims?
Was it really parts shortages and Covid?
Is it a result of pressure from the various government agencies?

Personally, I don't think you'll see a crack on the newer computers. I believe that you will see enhanced security with the coming model years. The next arena that will be attempted will likely be computer cloning and loading of the factory software so that it can be modified. I remember the days of cloning the IBM ROM chips and putting them in the generic computers so they would run the IBM (created by Microsoft) operating system.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

There is a lot of pressure on the manufacturers to make it more difficult for the consumer to change the computer controls on the engine. Emissions is a big issue for the Overlords of the air. Just look at how aggressively they have been going after the diesel tuners. It won't be long before they come after the gasoline burners.

Why the switch to the newer, more secure computers?
Does Stellantis just want to keep the controls locked to manage warranty claims?
Was it really parts shortages and Covid?
Is it a result of pressure from the various government agencies?

Personally, I don't think you'll see a crack on the newer computers. I believe that you will see enhanced security with the coming model years. The next arena that will be attempted will likely be computer cloning and loading of the factory software so that it can be modified. I remember the days of cloning the IBM ROM chips and putting them in the generic computers so they would run the IBM (created by Microsoft) operating system.

One nit-picking little correction - the BIOS ROM, Basic Input Output System ROM was IBM, later Phoenix developed their own from IBM's BIOS, and others followed for pc-compatibles.
Mickysoft did the operating system, PC-DOS/MS-DOS

 

[Mr._Bill]

One nit-picking little correction - the BIOS ROM, Basic Input Output System ROM was IBM, later Phoenix developed their own from IBM's BIOS, and others followed for pc-compatibles.
Mickysoft did the operating system, PC-DOS/MS-DOS

I bought my first clone back in the early days. I had to have the ROM chips to make full use of all PC-DOS had to offer. It was five additional chips added to the system board.

 

[Lunentucker]

LOL - for those who bite into anything marketing but not based on seeing decades of giga-volt coils put in only to find - nothing. There's a reason for that.

Not sure how much MSD would help on these with the technology already there, but coil packs, meh, pass, hard pass.
Once the plug fires, the voltage stops building. So if it takes 25,000 volts to fire the plug, a coil that kicks out 100,000 volts doesn't matter - it stops building at the point the spark jumps. There can be more energy for a longer duration spark - but that is more for old engines that rely on dwell time and fire cylinders from a single coil.

I'd love to see the ignition patterns on a stock 3.6 vs one with after-market coils.
Most of the time, "high performance" coils are a help when the engines have other issues.
A sound engine, physically solid and fit, good fuel control usually doesn't gain with different coils.

Hush. I was just trying to get him to spend more money on snake oils.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Hush. I was just trying to get him to spend more money on snake oils.

As opposed to...............??

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