Engine tick repair, to wait or not to wait?

[Green_Gladiator]

2021 JTM purchased new factory order. Now with 30k miles. I’ve had a tick in my engine since day one only on start up once the RPMs settle down there’s an audible slap/tick that goes away once I drive for as little as a 1/4 mile and doesn’t re-create itself until the cold start again the following day, or for sitting at least eight hours.

The tech explained it as the needle bearings wear out of the followers causing this issue.

The tech asked if I’m going to be keeping the vehicle past its powertrain and I said yes for the life of the vehicle. His advice was to wait around the 50 - 55,000 mile mark to get it, replaced under warranty to extend the life of the repair.

Any thoughts on the diagnosis and waiting another 20-25k to replace as advised ?

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[ShadowsPapa]

2021 JTM purchased new factory order. Now with 30k miles. I’ve had a tick in my engine since day one only on start up once the RPMs settle down there’s an audible slap/tick that goes away once I drive for as little as a 1/4 mile and doesn’t re-create itself until the cold start again the following day, or for sitting at least eight hours.

The tech explained it as the needle bearings wear out of the followers causing this issue.

The tech asked if I’m going to be keeping the vehicle past its powertrain and I said yes for the life of the vehicle. His advice was to wait around the 50 - 55,000 mile mark to get it, replaced under warranty to extend the life of the repair.

Any thoughts on the diagnosis and waiting another 20-25k to replace as advised ?

The tech doesn't seem quite correct for a tick that disappears once warmed up at all.
Any worn out bearings will tick all the time.
That one does seem a bit loud - but odd it would disappear once warmed up unless there was an oiling or lash adjuster issue.

If you want to wait 4 to 6 weeks, might be prudent to send in an oil sample to blackstone labs - if there's excessive wear somewhere, an oil analysis will show it.

Frankly, if it was mine - I'd do an oil change, send a sample of the oil that's in it now to blackstone, and I'd drive it for now.
the dealer won't necessarily care about excessive wear materials in an oil sample - but it will give you more information. Since it's under warranty - it's not a huge risk unless you take a long road trip with it.

 

[Charles 236]

If you do have a rocker arm failing, usually it is a high lift slider that wears a groove into the intake camshaft high lift lobe. If this is the case, don't let it go too long without repairs, since this wear releases metal into the engine. The oiling system will carry it throughout the engine, creating wear in other components that would be fine if it were repaired promptly.

 

[PuddleJumper]

2021 JTM purchased new factory order. Now with 30k miles. I’ve had a tick in my engine since day one only on start up once the RPMs settle down there’s an audible slap/tick that goes away once I drive for as little as a 1/4 mile and doesn’t re-create itself until the cold start again the following day, or for sitting at least eight hours.

The tech explained it as the needle bearings wear out of the followers causing this issue.

The tech asked if I’m going to be keeping the vehicle past its powertrain and I said yes for the life of the vehicle. His advice was to wait around the 50 - 55,000 mile mark to get it, replaced under warranty to extend the life of the repair.

Any thoughts on the diagnosis and waiting another 20-25k to replace as advised ?

i agree with the tech. just run a thicker oil to mask the noise if it bothers you. worst case the motor goes and they have to warranty it anyway.

 

[Green_Gladiator]

The tech doesn't seem quite correct for a tick that disappears once warmed up at all.
Any worn out bearings will tick all the time.
That one does seem a bit loud - but odd it would disappear once warmed up unless there was an oiling or lash adjuster issue.

If you want to wait 4 to 6 weeks, might be prudent to send in an oil sample to blackstone labs - if there's excessive wear somewhere, an oil analysis will show it.

Frankly, if it was mine - I'd do an oil change, send a sample of the oil that's in it now to blackstone, and I'd drive it for now.
the dealer won't necessarily care about excessive wear materials in an oil sample - but it will give you more information. Since it's under warranty - it's not a huge risk unless you take a long road trip with it.

Thanks for the info! I have seen multiple members sampling the oil for the first few changes. I understand why now. Agree with you on the oil analysis and might do just that as I can’t bring it for the repair for at least 6 weeks. As for the diagnosis, the oil sample will help with the expected back and forth at the dealer if needed

If you do have a rocker arm failing, usually it is a high lift slider that wears a groove into the intake camshaft high lift lobe. If this is the case, don't let it go too long without repairs, since this wear releases metal into the engine. The oiling system will carry it throughout the engine, creating wear in other components that would be fine if it were repaired promptly.

Yes definitely not wanting further issues. Makes sense I won’t be going far over the left 30-60 days and will get the repair done and move on.

i agree with the tech. just run a thicker oil to mask the noise if it bothers you. worst case the motor goes and they have to warranty it anyway.

I have time before I can consider dropping it off for the repair, local driving at most 3k miles. That may be the route it ends up going, sounds like a larger problem just waiting to happen. Thanks for the input ??

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If you do have a rocker arm failing, usually it is a high lift slider that wears a groove into the intake camshaft high lift lobe. If this is the case, don't let it go too long without repairs, since this wear releases metal into the engine. The oiling system will carry it throughout the engine, creating wear in other components that would be fine if it were repaired promptly.

Ironically, that's the area that normally goes well before any needle bearings.
The needle bearing would apply more to the pre upgrade engines where all followers or rockers ran rollers and needly bearings.
But this is the most common area on these. Like we've wondered before - is it an oiling issue - lack of - perhaps inadequate flow from the lash adjusters which provide the "squirt" through the followers onto the lobes, etc?

Oil sample is best bet to know - too bad it takes so long....

i agree with the tech. just run a thicker oil to mask the noise if it bothers you. worst case the motor goes and they have to warranty it anyway.

"Thicker oil" could make things worse because if this is an issue with lash adjusters, or inadequate oil, it's just going to get less oil when cold, not more.

These rely on the right oil viscosity for the phasers and solenoids.
It's ticking when cold - thick oil would generally make that worse until oil flow overcame the cold, or lash adjusters finally pumped up (indicating an issue with them)
Last thing I'd want to do is mask the issue - especially with a dealer involved. (and be accused of causing the harm with incorrect oil).

2021 JTM purchased new factory order. Now with 30k miles. I’ve had a tick in my engine since day one only on start up once the RPMs settle down there’s an audible slap/tick that goes away once I drive for as little as a 1/4 mile and doesn’t re-create itself until the cold start again the following day, or for sitting at least eight hours.

There is a TSB for lash adjusters - and this noise........but it only covers 22/23 model year and you have a 21. Bummer..........

Still - this could be lash adjusters, the damage like Charles showed, or other. If it was a 2020 - I'd lean solidly toward the damage Charles showed. 22 or 23, I'd wonder about lash adjusters. 21 is sort of caught in the middle but they do still experience the damage he showed.

I don't know how averse you are to risks - but I wonder if it's worth pulling, or having the dealer pull, a valve cover to physically look. If there's damage, then it's on them. If not, then you pay the fee.

 

[PuddleJumper]

Ironically, that's the area that normally goes well before any needle bearings.
The needle bearing would apply more to the pre upgrade engines where all followers or rockers ran rollers and needly bearings.
But this is the most common area on these. Like we've wondered before - is it an oiling issue - lack of - perhaps inadequate flow from the lash adjusters which provide the "squirt" through the followers onto the lobes, etc?

Oil sample is best bet to know - too bad it takes so long....


"Thicker oil" could make things worse because if this is an issue with lash adjusters, or inadequate oil, it's just going to get less oil when cold, not more.

These rely on the right oil viscosity for the phasers and solenoids.
It's ticking when cold - thick oil would generally make that worse until oil flow overcame the cold, or lash adjusters finally pumped up (indicating an issue with them)
Last thing I'd want to do is mask the issue - especially with a dealer involved. (and be accused of causing the harm with incorrect oil).




There is a TSB for lash adjusters - and this noise........but it only covers 22/23 model year and you have a 21. Bummer..........

Still - this could be lash adjusters, the damage like Charles showed, or other. If it was a 2020 - I'd lean solidly toward the damage Charles showed. 22 or 23, I'd wonder about lash adjusters. 21 is sort of caught in the middle but they do still experience the damage he showed.

I don't know how averse you are to risks - but I wonder if it's worth pulling, or having the dealer pull, a valve cover to physically look. If there's damage, then it's on them. If not, then you pay the fee.

Ahh, that makes more sense.

 

[ShrimpHappens]

I agree with others that this doesn't really seem like THE tick that I've seen others post on here. As stated, that tick doesn't go away when the engine is up to full operating temperature.

 

[ChrisNLA]

If it's done that since brand new and goes away once warmed up, I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it.

Each of my vehicles (a 6.2L LS, a 5.3L LS, and my 3.6L Pentastar) all make some sort of rattle, tick, knock, or other sound for a short bit when started. Once they have been on a drive, they are all pretty quiet. My LS 5.3L is the worst - if you didn't know any better you'd think it was losing a rod bearing, but after the piston slap goes away its the quietest engine in the driveway.

 

[Green_Gladiator]

Ironically, that's the area that normally goes well before any needle bearings.
The needle bearing would apply more to the pre upgrade engines where all followers or rockers ran rollers and needly bearings.
But this is the most common area on these. Like we've wondered before - is it an oiling issue - lack of - perhaps inadequate flow from the lash adjusters which provide the "squirt" through the followers onto the lobes, etc?
.

Spot on sir. That is the same explanation the tech provided me. He took me into the shop and ironically they had a Mojave having the engine rebuilt (Ran it with no oil) ouch! Tech showed me old vs new as described. Pointed out the needle bearings that are worn, and the hole for lift creating by the oil pressure.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Ahh, that makes more sense.

I can see that it's possible that you, or someone, could see some of the posts going on and thinking I'm just trying to hammer on you. No, not the case at all. Nope - I don't know you, I don't dislike you or anything like that. I'm just an old (66 sure feels old!) former tech (and former gov't IT security guy) who has lived many many lives and tries to share experiences and knowledge (and sometimes make mistakes and hopefully learn from them - folks like Charles here -dang, that guy is good and makes me yearn for being younger and back in an active production shop again and not my own shop).
time - well, being retired, and having weird freaky health problems that keep me off ice and stairs now and then, and constant doctor visits and such - I've not spend the time in my own shop that I really want to, so have a lot of down time lately.

i tend to jump on what I perceive as something that's incorrect, OCD about accuracy (and that's an abuse of the real OCD) due to some, well, things I've been diagnosed with.
So - it's not picking on and nothing personal.
As my former HS auto instructor told me once years ago - "you've lived more lives since you graduated than people twice your age".

A tip - one of my strongest dislikes is something like "I hear a weird noise" and then nothing more - crickets. Dang it, no 20 questions! Lay it out in the first question!
Details, man, details!

Anyway, back to the burning issues at hand here (see what I did there LOL)

 

[Green_Gladiator]

If it's done that since brand new and goes away once warmed up, I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it.

Each of my vehicles (a 6.2L LS, a 5.3L LS, and my 3.6L Pentastar) all make some sort of rattle, tick, knock, or other sound for a short bit when started. Once they have been on a drive, they are all pretty quiet. My LS 5.3L is the worst - if you didn't know any better you'd think it was losing a rod bearing, but after the piston slap goes away its the quietest engine in the driveway.

My experience exactly. Which is why I continued to drive it and not worry. 1/4 mile drive it’s gone! Get back in 2hours later start it up and will not make a sound.

However I had a few others at work various times ask me what’s that sound when in the parking lot before leaving for the day. Now I had to have it looked at. Lmao

 

[PuddleJumper]

I can see that it's possible that you, or someone, could see some of the posts going on and thinking I'm just trying to hammer on you. No, not the case at all. Nope - I don't know you, I don't dislike you or anything like that. I'm just an old (66 sure feels old!) former tech (and former gov't IT security guy) who has lived many many lives and tries to share experiences and knowledge (and sometimes make mistakes and hopefully learn from them - folks like Charles here -dang, that guy is good and makes me yearn for being younger and back in an active production shop again and not my own shop).
time - well, being retired, and having weird freaky health problems that keep me off ice and stairs now and then, and constant doctor visits and such - I've not spend the time in my own shop that I really want to, so have a lot of down time lately.

i tend to jump on what I perceive as something that's incorrect, OCD about accuracy (and that's an abuse of the real OCD) due to some, well, things I've been diagnosed with.
So - it's not picking on and nothing personal.
As my former HS auto instructor told me once years ago - "you've lived more lives since you graduated than people twice your age".

A tip - one of my strongest dislikes is something like "I hear a weird noise" and then nothing more - crickets. Dang it, no 20 questions! Lay it out in the first question!
Details, man, details!

Anyway, back to the burning issues at hand here (see what I did there LOL)

Nah you’re good man. I’m learning something at a bear min and that’s enough for me. I’m the only young guy in my field so I get similar treatment everywhere. Rarely is actual malice. Appreciate the clarification though

 

[ShadowsPapa]

These things can tick when cold or be quiet as an electric motor in other cases. When I stand outside of one, I can sometimes here a slight tick tick, but inside, nothing. I generally don't pay a whole lot of attention to first few seconds ticks - but then - define the tick? To some it might be loud, others it's just a small thing.

I need to see if I can rig up JSCAN on mine and see if I can tell when the thing switches into high lift mode and when it comes back out, I'm wondering if it's in high lift for starting to get the full valve lift for initial intake air, then settles back to low lift mode?

If I'm correct (if) these high lift portions of the followers drag slightly over the center cam profile even when not engaged, thus the spring - and I wonder if there's some slap there going on. Otherwise, if these run in low lift mode 2800 rpm and below, why is the high lift part blowing up on these?

 

[Charles 236]

This rocker arm and intake camshaft are from a '22 Mojave that I repaired yesterday. It has around 19,000 miles, the "ticking" was actually intermittent and not very loud. Since it wasn't very loud and was intermittent, I decided on my own to pull the right valve cover and have a look. This is what I found. If you suspect a valvetrain noise, it is worthwhile to investigate. Also, some Gladiators do fall into the time frame for lash adjuster related noises, but it isn't limited to any specific time period. Any engine can have an issue, but some issues are more likely than others at different times.

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