Loose Steering?

[ShadowsPapa]

Hard to tell from the GIF but it appears to me that you have about 1" of play from left to right. I have about 0.5" of play from left to right before my Rubicon reacts. I have my stock 33" Falkens set at 32 PSI cold. I've learned to live with it as I thought this amount of play is normal for solid axle vehicles. If not, then... Let's all complain and get a recall started.

As I've said in other threads here for some time - if it was normal, then even people who have owned other similar Jeeps - Wrangler, for example, or all others who own JT would be talking about similar. Mine is true and straight and no need to move the steering wheel beyond a normal amount to keep it straight. Mine is very similar to steering my Chevy and it had SLA IFS (Short Long Arm Independent Front Suspension - like a car in other words)
If it was normal, then the numbers in this poll should surely be a lot different, is that not correct?
17 people say their JT has loose steering and yet those 17 say their other Jeeps did not.
Only 2 say their other Jeeps did as well - but for that small number, it's possible they don't "get" or understand what others are REALLY seeing and feeling.
Mine is so good I never once thought it had any steering issues at all - and yet people who have had other similar Jeep vehicles state theirs is a problem child.

Logic would say - there's a problem - MAYBE, just MAYBE, more than one. Perhaps simple changes or adjustments can resolve it. Do the dealers "think outside of the box" at all or are they lost after hitting the end of their laminated point card? (there is no box - so that saying is stupid - logical thinking, professional troubleshooting, that's what is needed but too many techs today don't say well if this is on the high side of spec and that's on the low side of spec, it can be a problem even if BOTH measurements are IN factory specs.)

Example - camber and caster, among other things, like tire pressure, can influence a pull to one side. Gee, camber is in specs, caster is in specs and the tires are in specs, no problem. What if both caster and camber are on the side of the spec that could cause a pull to the left and hey, that tire is 2 pounds lower in pressure - DUH. That thing will pull to the left - even though all is in specs. It's called a stack-up of tolerances. It can mean a new engine has the limit of clearance and won't last as long as the next one that has a crankshaft at the top of spec and a bearing at the small side, a tight engine compared to another.

There is no "box" to think outside of, it's a made up artificial thing used as an excuse to not think using experience, perceptually.
(yeah, I know you can't really change caster, etc. on these - but there's still a spec as there can be manufacturing differences or damage or wear - I was just making a generic point)

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[spazzyfry123]

If I moved my wheel that much left to right it would make people behind me think I was drunk as it would react. Maybe not like a tight ratio sector in a sports car, but still, it would take the truck back and forth quite a bit.
It would be interesting to compare - that's why I suggested anyone in my area come over and compare and we'd check things out.
You did double-check tire pressure and it's not at some nasty factory setting over 38 is it? You said it's stock so I didn't know if anything was checked over yet or not.
There are simple things you can do - have someone "wiggle" the wheel back and forth while you look for flex or anything loose - watch the linkage and see if things respond right away or there is lag before the wheels respond.
Run your hands across the face of the tires - from inside to outside then from outside to inside, both front tires. If either feels "sawtooth" or rough one direction and smoother the other, you do have a toe issue. If that's not correct it will cause tire wear (and you have enough miles it may show already) and no matter what else, it needs corrected. If that's wrong it can cause SHIMMY as well. With the larger tires on these it might feel unstable rather than a fast shake.
Poor alignment (and alignment includes caster, camber, as well as other angles and concepts) MAY show a pattern on the tire you can see - if you drive on dirty concrete - say small gravel, sand, dirt, etc as the wheels turn they won't move in a perfectly straight line - look at the dirt and pattern on the front tires. If anything is skewed - like something was wiped across the tire instead of the tire rolling straight over it, something may be off.
IF you are going to check toe yourself - use a good stiff tape measure, not a cheap narrow Harbor Freight version - something that will stay straight when you have 10 feet rolled out. OR, use a long flat stick and make marks after checking the rear and then place it on the front and compare to the mark you made at the rear.
My point is that a tape measure can flex enough to throw your reading off by 1/8" or more so whatever you use to measure, keep it perfectly straight.
You want the front end to be "relaxed" when doing that check, no stress, so flat ground, come to a slow stop - hitting the brakes tends to move the fronts of the wheels out and could give a false toe reading. We would work the steering wheel back and forth a bit, then center it, then read toe.
A while back I commented that there may be more than one thing going on - some symptoms may match more than one cause.
It's harder to resolve things if there is more than one cause as something can mask other things.
Check the basics, get someone to wiggle the wheel (engine running) while you look under the front and watch things closely.
If you check all of the basics, you go from there - because we don't know for a fact ALL people are seeing the exact same thing. Of 100 people, 20 could be a defect or problem while 40 can be resolved by checks and adjustments.
Some things are free to do and you sure don't need a shop to do them for you.

I like the idea of getting it resolved myself. I'm relatively mechanically inclined I'd say, but I also don't feel that I should be doing anything. Meaning that I paid good money for this thing and I'd anticipate it to be more or less ready to go - I understand things happen, so I'm not mad or anything. Also I want the work to be done so that the finger doesn't get pointed back at me and warranty denied for reason xyz. Unfortunately I already know dealers that act this way and that's why I drove over an hour to a different dealer yesterday. The one nearest to me was going to charge me minimum an hour's labor to diagnose why my Freedom Panels do not fit correctly from the factory - they say that since I took them off it is my fault they do not line up

Bottom line is this is my probably twelfth or something Jeep. TJs, YJs, XJs, WJs, WK2, JT... You get the picture. Everything from a YJ on one-tons, coil overs, stretched wheelbase to a cherry bone stock Cherokee Limited XJ with low miles and everything in between. I've never owned a Jeep that had steering react like this or any vehicle this bad period. And that even includes my fully hydraulic PSC steering YJ on the street!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This video was with 37 psi warm. But I've tried multiple different pressures with the same result. Only significant change was going from as-delivered tire pressures (42 psi cold I think it was?) down to about 35 psi cold after I took delivery. Any other changes I've done as low as into the 20s hasn't provided any positive result and is similar to video.

Wow, you've really tried all logical pressures, down below 30 psi even and it didn't resolve anything.
Again, we may be looking at more than one cause for the same symptoms or behavior in the end. (and 42 is high for any of the JT tires unless I missed one being used out there - even Overland's skinny tire is only 38 on the sticker.)
Definitely get someone to wiggle the wheel, engine running, shake the steering wheel hard back and forth while you watch things. It's a FREE test, taking only time. Buy the other person a beer in exchange for the help or give a neighbor kid a quarter (maybe it's a 5 these days) to shake the wheel.

 

[Onebigyoshi]

This video was with 37 psi warm. But I've tried multiple different pressures with the same result. Only significant change was going from as-delivered tire pressures (42 psi cold I think it was?) down to about 35 psi cold after I took delivery. Any other changes I've done as low as into the 20s hasn't provided any positive result and is similar to video.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too, but I'm going to lower it anyways see if it helps. On the plus side maybe my ride will be a little more smooth.

 

[spazzyfry123]

Wow, you've really tried all logical pressures, down below 30 psi even and it didn't resolve anything.
Again, we may be looking at more than one cause for the same symptoms or behavior in the end. (and 42 is high for any of the JT tires unless I missed one being used out there - even Overland's skinny tire is only 38 on the sticker.)
Definitely get someone to wiggle the wheel, engine running, shake the steering wheel hard back and forth while you watch things. It's a FREE test, taking only time. Buy the other person a beer in exchange for the help or give a neighbor kid a quarter (maybe it's a 5 these days) to shake the wheel.

The first 45 seconds of this video could be a culprit as well.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The first 45 seconds of this video could be a culprit as well.

My take - anyone doing anything across really rough ground, perhaps "rock crawling" or any sort of thing where there will be resistance to steering and forces that want to push wheels side to side, or resist them moving as when trying to turn, would be well off to go ahead and add that kit.
The track bar has been a problem in the past - I have a sketch from an engineer who shows that some issues in the past were results of track bar flex - in this case, the anchor point on the left frame rail could flex.
I'd include that brace on the sector for anyone doing serious off-roading - not just mud and such, but when you get into really rough spots it's not like trying to steer on a road - (duh, I can hear people saying already) and the amount of frame flex shown there sitting still would be far greater if that sector was under any real resistance to turning the wheel.
People who drive away with the "loose steering" (which honestly could be a blanket description with multiple causes) should not have to pay anyone anything for a fix, assuming there's a problem which a couple of posts seem to indicate Jeep has something coming down the pipe - but anyway, if there's frame flex like that, we know metal fatigue - well, don't have to say much about that.
I like that you said "a culprit" as it appears more and more there are multiple things going on.

Anyway, I like that kit and if I was thinking of anything stressful on the steering - I'd be looking at that anyway, "issue" or not. Prevention.

 

[4esop]

I still need to do a few more checks on things with my Gladiator. I have 0.1 out of spec cross-caster. My new 32.6 in tires that are 0.4 in wider seem to have improved things. But it got hotter today (mid 80s) and I noticed I had the dead zone again. I keep saying that it comes and goes and I've been wondering if it could also be the road style. I will pay more attention, but I think it could be something I'm seeing on roads where there is 1 lane each way and the crown is in the center of the lane on each side. Does that make sense or indicate anything to check?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I still need to do a few more checks on things with my Gladiator. I have 0.1 out of spec cross-caster. My new 32.6 in tires that are 0.4 in wider seem to have improved things. But it got hotter today (mid 80s) and I noticed I had the dead zone again. I keep saying that it comes and goes and I've been wondering if it could also be the road style. I will pay more attention, but I think it could be something I'm seeing on roads where there is 1 lane each way and the crown is in the center of the lane on each side. Does that make sense or indicate anything to check?

Caster of course can't be easily changed on these, "cross caster" or the difference between left and right can't be changed - AS FAR AS I KNOW unless someone knows of a way to literally twist the axle tubes in the carrier housing or a way to tilt the steering knuckle fore or aft.
Solid axle - the tubes are pressed into the housing and welded into place. The steering knuckle on the end appears to be secure on the axle tube. Consider the whole front axle assembly as one big tube that runs left to right. They set the difference or caster spread by how they put the axle tubes into the carrier housing. Even with jigs and robots there will be variances.

Caster is where the steering axis tilts rearward or forward at the top. If it was ball joints, you draw a line through the top ball joint to the bottom ball joint. In a Jeep there are pivot points on the ends of the axle tubes - a top joint and a lower joint - draw an imaginary line through the center of the top down through the center of the bottom pivot point.
If that line is back at the top - tilts rearward at the top, that's positive caster. If that line tilts forward at the top - if that pivot point on the end if the axle was more forward at the top than the bottom, that's negative caster.

Take a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels - or a piece of pipe a few inches long. Lay it on a table or bench left to right in front of you. Draw a straight line along the top of the pipe or tube - left end to right end, straight across.
This line will represent the very top of your front axle assembly, the tube or pipe being that axle assembly.
Hold one end and try to make the line on the top of that tube be to the rear of center or the front of center on the other end. Can't be done. You have to literally twist the tube to get the top of one end to move forward or backward without moving the other end. So unless you can take that steering knuckle off one end and turn it a bit to change caster on just that one end - you can't change just one end.

They would have to allow some sort of a twisting joint to allow the caster spread to be changed. Even changing the length of one lower "control arm" and not changing the other won't do it because you can't twist just one end of the whole assembly. You can shove one end of the axle assembly forward or rearward - but that doesn't change the tilt of that end.

Caster impacts stability - like caster on a bike or the front shopping cart wheels, if positive it tends to hold the wheels in a straight ahead position and resist being turned. Negative can lead to "wander" and it makes steering a whole lot easier. Positive caster is often used to take the wheels back to straight ahead after a turn. But SAI (steering axis inclination) also does that.
Caster tends to make the wheels want to toe in while the other angles make the wheels want to toe out - as well as the wheel offset or distance from the steering axis or pivot point.
If you are close to 0 at things like caster, it can lead to steering issues - as the axle moves up and down the caster changes very slightly so if sitting at or near 0 it may go positive and then negative.
Toe if way off can cause shimmy or the need for steering correction. If there is anything loose, one tire may try to run a perfectly straight line parallel to the movement of the vehicle and if toe is excessive one way or the other, in the process, it moves the other wheel out of parallel to the movement of the vehicle -straight ahead. Now that wheel tries to roll perfectly straight and pulls the other wheel out of parallel with vehicle movement. Shimmy or wobble - usually very fast, like a wheel out of balance, but may vary.

So, pay attention to road crown, surface type, check the face of your tires after a straight drive - does the wear pattern look like they simply ran over rock, sand, dirt or like they were dragged over - a rock or sand should simply make a simple mark, not like the tire sort of slid over it. If you see marks that indicate sliding or dragging - could be toe is off. Toe incorrect will lead to a feathered wear - run you hand across the face of the tire, left to right, then right to left - should feel even or smooth both directions, not catch in either.

 

[jrf]

The first 45 seconds of this video could be a culprit as well.

It could be part of it..but it's not the whole problem, at least not with mine. It's definitely the steering box.

My take - anyone doing anything across really rough ground, perhaps "rock crawling" or any sort of thing where there will be resistance to steering and forces that want to push wheels side to side, or resist them moving as when trying to turn, would be well off to go ahead and add that kit.

Which is exactly why I didn't mind adding the kit. One, knowing 37s were going on there starting to beef up what would become the weak points, especially the frame was not a bad idea in my opinion. The sector shaft support is also not a bad idea. While one could argue the twisting forces are what breaks sector shafts with large tires, I still feel that having that shaft in double shear has to alleviate some stress from it. The added bonus would have been if it resolved the steering play thus answering the question of where the problem really lies. That was my last effort to finally prove, it's inside the steering box. No question in my mind now. All of my other steering gear is tight, checked it myself. Alignment is good, checked it myself (actually tried changing the toe in both directions, didn't help). It's the steering box.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It could be part of it..but it's not the whole problem, at least not with mine. It's definitely the steering box.



Which is exactly why I didn't mind adding the kit. One, knowing 37s were going on there starting to beef up what would become the weak points, especially the frame was not a bad idea in my opinion. The sector shaft support is also not a bad idea. While one could argue the twisting forces are what breaks sector shafts with large tires, I still feel that having that shaft in double shear has to alleviate some stress from it. The added bonus would have been if it resolved the steering play thus answering the question of where the problem really lies. That was my last effort to finally prove, it's inside the steering box. No question in my mind now. All of my other steering gear is tight, checked it myself. Alignment is good, checked it myself (actually tried changing the toe in both directions, didn't help). It's the steering box.

Trust me - I believe you - and that's why I keep going out on limbs and risking being ridiculed, called all sorts of things and worse - because I truly believe we may well have more than one issue and I have dealt with many many vehicles with "loose steering" where a sector overhaul or replacement resolved the issue. A couple of videos I've seen looked exactly like my own Eagle did before I changed the steering sector (at over 180,000 miles - not bad, eh? But hey, WORN)
Even a fellow trying to help with a weird vibration I'd been chasing said "did you know your steering is loose? Feels like a worn steering sector".
We have seen at least one post where the person here said they were told "new revision sector" and perhaps software. He was told that by a dealer I believe. Hmmmm.
I won't fault anyone who wants to try all of the other stuff - can't hurt - prove to the dealer if nothing else what it is NOT.
But there are enough complaints, and even with the small number who have responded to the poll I put up - it points to at least ONE issue that is unique to the JT.
I will say yeah - there are some that other things may take care of, maybe a handful that other changes mask the real issue or at least make it better, but I do believe there are other problems with some of these that involves the steering sector itself. 17 who say this is NOT their first Jeep with this type of front end can't be a fluke. If there wasn't something, why the steering box revisions?? Wouldn't the first one be just fine but from what I see, there are already two versions.

 

[jrf]

If someone right now made an aftermarket steering box that I could just swap out like for like, I'd do it in a second to prove it. Nothing better than taking that back to the dealer and saying "See, it's not a Jeep thing, it's a bad steering box thing". I will continue to fight this fight, but I'm being honest when I say at this point, I'm ready for an aftermarket solution that just makes my Jeep drive safely and correctly. I don't care about the money, I care about the safety.

It's frustrating that FCA's stance is to just live with it and that it's normal. It seems lately in the auto industry if people aren't dying then it's not worth the money to make customers satisfied. They would rather you drive around in something you resent...very bizzare American car company attitude.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If someone right now made an aftermarket steering box that I could just swap out like for like, I'd do it in a second to prove it. Nothing better than taking that back to the dealer and saying "See, it's not a Jeep thing, it's a bad steering box thing". I will continue to fight this fight, but I'm being honest when I say at this point, I'm ready for an aftermarket solution that just makes my Jeep drive safely and correctly. I don't care about the money, I care about the safety.

It's frustrating that FCA's stance is to just live with it and that it's normal. It seems lately in the auto industry if people aren't dying then it's not worth the money to make customers satisfied. They would rather you drive around in something you resent...very bizzare American car company attitude.

I hear ya - and I try to think - if this was MY Jeep - what would I be doing, what would I be willing to do...... what if I had your Jeep.
And I wonder- if I could replace the sector for what for me would be a reasonable price, I'd be moving other projects and cars out of my shop now and swapping out parts. That's no solution - and it sucks that people would have to do something like that, but geesh, to have one where tires, alignment, the simple basic stuff just isn't working, what do you do? In the weather we had this week - and you may have seen the link I posted to the video, the black ice, snow, slick intersections, slick interstates where the max speed should be 35-40, judging by a couple of videos and your description, I'd not take the thing out in this stuff. I'd be afraid of not being able to bring the thing back under control. You need absolute steering control in snow and ice.
Again, I'm with you - I'll deal with the mud and insults and slams tossed my way when I care about an issue like this where people could get hurt. I don't know anyone here at all - but for some weird, odd, reason, I care.
I walked away from a job when I believed what the shop I was working in was going to send a family out to be killed rather than do the job right. Literally, walked out the door, got my truck, backed up, loaded my tools, drove away and never looked back. Profit and appearance over safety. (and I had JUST bought a brand new car and had payments - that's how strongly I felt)

 

[Rollcast]

If someone right now made an aftermarket steering box that I could just swap out like for like, I'd do it in a second to prove it. Nothing better than taking that back to the dealer and saying "See, it's not a Jeep thing, it's a bad steering box thing". I will continue to fight this fight, but I'm being honest when I say at this point, I'm ready for an aftermarket solution that just makes my Jeep drive safely and correctly. I don't care about the money, I care about the safety.

It's frustrating that FCA's stance is to just live with it and that it's normal. It seems lately in the auto industry if people aren't dying then it's not worth the money to make customers satisfied. They would rather you drive around in something you resent...very bizzare American car company attitude.

If I were in your boat, I would start adjusting the steering box. You are kind of in a "nothing-to-lose" situation if your steering is still that bad.

Is the JL box the same as the JT? I think quadratec sells JL boxes.

 

[jrf]

Is the JL box the same as the JT? I think quadratec sells JL boxes.

Now that is a really good question. I did hear that PSC's JL kit does not fit the JT directly. I can not remember exactly but I thought it had something to do with the steering box and engine mount, something about it being different between JL and JT but honestly I'm not sure. Don't even remember where I heard that. But that's a really good question!! I wonder if the electric PS pump is the same also.

 

[Oscar Indy]

Okay then.... What bolt are we referring to here ya think?

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