0W-40 in PUG 3.6

[ShadowsPapa]

It doesn’t say it turns back into the exact same oil used before. A new product doesn’t mean the same product.

Right. A lot of it goes into heating kilns and industrial heating needs, furnaces, home heating oils and other products.
And it's far more than filtered - it's literally restructured.
Those who say "base oil can't break down" and "oil is oil" - well, it can break down, and "EVOO" and corn oil are oil, too.

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[Old Dogger]

To the OP's Title question: 0W40 viscosity is just fine, but I use 0W30 in hot as hell Phoenix AZ. The higher viscosity used in the PUG engine, is really needed, because they have re-engineered the high-lift rocker arms, from roller bearings to a metal-to-metal drag slide. Plenty of oil flow, along with viscosity is needed, to prevent wear failures. There have been some failures with the 0W20 in this rocker are area. The factory has so stated that they feel they have an updated fix. I don't know what the updated fix in tales, but I hope that more oil flow and a higher viscosity recommendation is part of it. IMO..This FED CAFE driven 0W20, is part of the problem.

 

[Old Dogger]

Those who say "base oil can't break down" and "oil is oil" - well, it can break down,

Yes, it can! Heat related, contamination (fuel, condensation, silicon/dirt), plus TBN depletes in time.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

To the OP's Title question: 0W40 viscosity is just fine, but I use 0W30 in hot as hell Phoenix AZ. The higher viscosity used in the PUG engine, is really needed, because they have re-engineered the high-lift rocker arms, from roller bearings to a metal-to-metal drag slide. Plenty of oil flow, along with viscosity is needed, to prevent wear failures. There have been some failures with the 0W20 in this rocker are area. The factory has so stated that they feel they have an updated fix. I don't know what the updated fix in tales, but I hope that more oil flow and a higher viscosity recommendation is part of it. IMO..This FED CAFE driven 0W20, is part of the problem.

Seriously?
There have been failures with 0w30 as well. I guess you missed that fact.

This engine was designed for 0w20. I guess you didn't read all of those bits.
0w20 results in MORE FLOW vs. heavier weight. Thicker oil moves more slowly, holds air in it leading to the possibility of more oxidation (of even the base oil).

No, the fix is MATERIALS. It's not a matter of oiling.
Looks like we have to start all over again.
I have a later build 2025 supposedly with the different cams - the oil recommendation is the same. Why? Because the issue was never about oil. People believing that are tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

There have been some failures with the 0W20 in this rocker are area. The factory has so stated that they feel they have an updated fix. I don't know what the updated fix in tales, but I hope that more oil flow and a higher viscosity recommendation

LOL - no, the factory hasn't stated shit about oil because it's not an oil issue - the issue is materials/manufacturing.
Read the actual TSB, not the links to the blog article. The TSB states what the issue was - that's why there's a cut-off date in the TSB, before something like August 14, 2024 vs after that date. So the TSB won't apply to mine - built after that date, likely with the new parts. Same viscosity, however.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Here is one company in Canada that does it. Mind blowing isn’t it.

I really had to laugh even more as I think of this.
What field was I trained in? What did the college shop do with its oil? The same thing all eco-hating, enemy of the ecology Americans do? Dump it in storm sewers or streams and ponds, or flush it down the toiled? No, we recycled it. What did the shops do I worked in? Dump it in the floor drains? No, we recycled hundreds of gallons of oil a year - and antifreeze as well.
I've done oil changes for many many years, decades, I recycle. I keep all sorts of plastic jugs around for that purpose. I have a rig made that holds my funnels, and everything coming out of the funnels drops down into a drain tube and that runs into a 2.5 gallon jug so I can recycle it. It's a mix of stuff, but still - it goes to be recycled. I've been aware of the fact oil has been recycled for years and the processes that go into it.
No, it's no mind blowing, but what might be is all of the work and energy (yeah, energy like heat, electric, etc.) to recycle it. It's not easy - it has to be processed through many different ways including re-refining it. You usually end up with something more like a base stock to be blended in with virgin base stocks.

Some might make a good base for chain saw bar oil, or 2 cycle oil, heating oil, and if processed enough and blended with better base stocks, yeah, engine oils for your car or Jeep - blended in, re-refined using multiple processes to rebuild the structure.
But recycling isn't cleaning and putting back in a bottle for use in your car.

It's a GOOD thing - you don't end up having to just dump it somewhere and it helps cut down the amount of crude that goes into making engine oil. But you don't just buy a bottle of recycled oil without it having been blended in with other, and re-refined


Here's a pretty good basic example, there are others that are far far more detailed -

Recycled Oil

When you change the oil in a car or hydraulic machinery, you probably have a disposal container to hold the used fluids. Follow the examples of many other companies by bringing that container to a recycling plant, rather than letting it sit on your business's property indefinitely.

When the plant recycles the used oil, they process it and filter out the physical impurities and dirt. Recycled oil may also be reconditioned by adding chemicals that prolong its usefulness. While you probably should not swap out recycled oil for motor oil or hydraulic fluids, the substance remains useful for heating fuel, diesel fuel, marine fuel, or to lubricate some systems.

If you use recycled oil for these purposes, you can significantly reduce the environmental impact of your fuel. Rather than expending the energy involved in procuring crude oil, the recycling process only requires filtration and transportation to be useful in your business. Still, recycled oil is imperfect and should not be used as motor oil for vehicles.

Re-Refined Oil

Re-refined oil has a much more stringent process to make it ready for use again. Most of the time, a re-refining process looks very similar to the original filtration, distillation, and dehydration that crude oil will go through. A significant difference between recycled and re-refined oil is the extraction of chemical intrusions from the latter, which requires more extensive purification.

By undergoing the same process as crude oil, used oil can become the equal of virgin oil and sometimes outperform it. Re-refined oil meets all of the same standards that new oil must, or the API will not allow it onto the market. When you use re-refined oil in your shop, you can safely assure your customers that their vehicles will run just as well as with virgin oil.

Unlike virgin oil, however, the environmental impact remains low because re-refined oil uses a fluid that has already been extracted, rather than drilling for more oil. Less energy goes into the process — for more significant gain since re-refined oil tends to have a much higher output than virgin oil's first purification.


It's typically added to the virgin base stock, blended.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

It doesn’t say it turns back into the exact same oil used before. A new product doesn’t mean the same product.

I think this one does. Here’s another recycle management companyin Alberta that has this to say:

I guess there’s “high quality” used oil and “low quality” used oil. The “high quality” stuff they make new again for the auto industry had me send them an email asking about it.
….waiting for their reply.

 

[sharpsicle]

I think this one does. Here’s another recycle management companyin Alberta that has this to say:

I guess there’s “high quality” used oil and “low quality” used oil. The “high quality” stuff they make new again for the auto industry had me send them an email asking about it.
….waiting for their reply.

That says the same thing as the one before. I think you are connecting dots that they are intentionally being vague enough not to connect.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

That says the same thing as the one before. I think you are connecting dots that they are intentionally being vague enough not to connect.

I’ve asked. Should get an answer soon

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Recycled oil is used for heating, burning, energy, lubrication, and so on.
RE-REFINED oil can be REFINED AGAIN to restructure the broken down base molecules, remove oxidation and so on, and be made into a base oil which is then blended into other bases to create engine oil for cars.

So technically speaking - you recycle the oil, but recycled oil on THEIR end doesn't go into cars.
RE-REFINED oil does in part - the parts that can be refined and blended into other bases.

I haven't yet seen where they take your recycled oil and clean it and put it in bottles for your engine, nor have I seen where re-refined oil is mixed with the additives and bottled for your engine without other bases.
On its own it doesn't appear to be as capable, and from what I've seen, read, heard, ends up as a I or II, perhaps a III but isn't used as a base by itself.

I’ve asked. Should get an answer soon

Be sure to be SPECIFIC as if you get their front support person, they'll say "sure, we recycle the oil for use in engines".
They don't. Only a refiner can do that and it's not used as the sole base on modern engines with critical clearances and requiring very stable viscosity - a level viscosity index.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Recycled oil is used for heating, burning, energy, lubrication, and so on.
RE-REFINED oil can be REFINED AGAIN to restructure the broken down base molecules, remove oxidation and so on, and be made into a base oil which is then blended into other bases to create engine oil for cars.

So technically speaking - you recycle the oil, but recycled oil on THEIR end doesn't go into cars.
RE-REFINED oil does in part - the parts that can be refined and blended into other bases.

I haven't yet seen where they take your recycled oil and clean it and put it in bottles for your engine, nor have I seen where re-refined oil is mixed with the additives and bottled for your engine without other bases.
On its own it doesn't appear to be as capable, and from what I've seen, read, heard, ends up as a I or II, perhaps a III but isn't used as a base by itself.



Be sure to be SPECIFIC as if you get their front support person, they'll say "sure, we recycle the oil for use in engines".
They don't. Only a refiner can do that and it's not used as the sole base on modern engines with critical clearances and requiring very stable viscosity - a level viscosity index.

I asked some real goodies

You’re sounding a little scared right now. You’ll be ok. We gotcha. You might just find out all the major oil manufacturers buy bulk supply of “made new again” oil and sell it “as new” in their own branded bottles …and the majority of us, (this doesn’t include you) have never thought this actually happens.

It’s kinda like what happens to water. The earth only has so much of it. It was made to only have so much at the very beginning and it still has that much. It’s been used and abused and it just keeps cycling round and round, not a drop less now than what was at the start. Neat eh?!

 

[FrankFrqnkFrank]

Shadowspapa, what would you think about everybody using re-refined 0W-40 oil?

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Read this. Only up here in BC where it all happens proudly

https://interchangerecycling.com/app/uploads/2022/06/FACT-SHEET-Re-refined-Motor-Oil.pdf

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Shadowspapa, what would you think about everybody using re-refined 0W-40 oil?

Just like the article I posted from BC, re refined oil can even meet or exceed the brand spanking new virgin stuff because it’s all ready been around and “some” of the oil manufacturers don’t even have to tell you your running re refined oil.

Now you can run “even better” re refined 0/40 that exceeds the other new stuff. I think it would protect better too.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I asked some real goodies

You’re sounding a little scared right now. You’ll be ok.

HAHA - hardly. I know what it is. But wondered if you and others did. People kept talking about "it's filtered" and "oil never breaks down". That's the two problems with this. Oil base CAN break down, and the oil you get, no matter the source, isn't just filtered to remove crud. It's such a mix of things it has to be refined again, pretty much starting over part way down the process.

We gotcha. You might just find out all the major oil manufacturers buy bulk supply of “made new again” oil and sell it “as new” in their own branded bottles …and the majority of us, (this doesn’t include you) have never thought this actually happens.

It’s kinda like what happens to water. The earth only has so much of it. It was made to only have so much at the very beginning and it still has that much. It’s been used and abused and it just keeps cycling round and round, not a drop less now than what was at the start. Neat eh?!

Uh, I knew that. Been in the business too long to not know what happens - and know that it's not just filtered, that much of it ends up as "other stuff" and what goes back to the oil makers is gone through just like crude in many ways
It's re-refined.
I did know it happens.
Recycling is different than taking and "rebuilding" oil through re-refining though.
Base oil does oxidize and even break down. re-refining restructures is, including adding hydrogen back to the carbon chains - it's oil again.
And yes, I knew about how it's used - blended with virgin oils, etc.
Nothing new.
but it's not just filtered and cleaned. It goes through many of the same processes as crude oil when it's refined.

It's not like I didn't know that. Ya ain't saying anything new, sorry, I think you were hoping.

Shadowspapa, what would you think about everybody using re-refined 0W-40 oil?

re-refined oil is generally added to crude base. Even if not, it's not "recycled", it's broken down, dirty oil (like crude is) that's refined - again. By the time it's done, it's just as good as fresh crude, maybe better, because of all of the manipulating processes.

There's nothing wrong with that - the chemistry is strongly, closely monitored. The results end up like anything else.
What's synthetic oil (other than Pennzoil, of course) but oil that is manipulated, and formed and modified into what they want it to be.
So re-refined isn't much different than synthetic that comes from crude base stock.. You trust them to make synthetic, same efforts go into re-refined oils.

As far as 0w40 - that's where people who don't know better go believing they are preventing cam destruction and saving engines.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Just like the article I posted from BC, re refined oil can even meet or exceed the brand spanking new virgin stuff because it’s all ready been around and “some” of the oil manufacturers don’t even have to tell you your running re refined oil.

Now you can run “even better” re refined 0/40 that exceeds the other new stuff. I think it would protect better too.

IT still come down to the viscosity index and other additives. The base may be better than some, but the end product will totally depend on what's going into it, and which crude base it is like - I, II, III and so on.
Better? That depends on what it's competing against, the base it's being put up against, viscosity index and more. There's more to it than that.


They also don't tell you most other things - so what' s new?

Even re-refining, you will eventually lose bulk or quantity, because some of the lighter parts literally evaporate away, some are burned. So for every quart (assuming it was all 100% and no additives) that you put in your engine, you get out oil that has less re-usable base due to burning and vaporization. It's not a "closed cycle", but it's the best we can do. Frankly, I think ALL used engine oil should be turned in - all of it. Whether it becomes heating oil, lubrication for small electric motors, or whatever, use it all again.
I take in old electric motors for the copper recycling, bumpers for aluminum (they love that stuff), oil, batteries, computers/electronics, you name it. I even compost, including coffee grounds.

I'm all for it - no fear here. Been turning in batteries, oil, coolant and other stuff for longer than some here have been alive, knowing very well what happens.
And I'm not afraid of re-refined oil - because that's what it is - chemically manipulated, treated with heat, pressure, whatever, it's molecules.

One thing I don't believe in, though, is soylent green. That's taking reduce, reuse, recycle a bit too far.

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