Are Supercharger Issues Entirely Related to Tuning or also Hardware?

[kyoung05]

I have a 2022 Gladiator Sport w/ Manual transmission and I've been looking for ways to add more power. While I don't think it necessarily NEEDS it, it is the one area where I think the truck could be improved upon. That said, I've always run 93 octane since brand new, and I felt that might've helped the engine feel a bit more peppy than it would have when running 87 - even with the manual transmission and standard gearing. I've since added the HikeIt throttle controller, and feel like this helped a lot too - most of the low end 'lag' is now gone - and accelerating from stop lights isn't so sluggish. If anything, depending on the setting, it can now feel too jerky.

Since I have a 2022 model I figured I wouldn't be able to use any of the Supercharger kits because of the GPEC5 ECU. However, I just checked it after all this time, and it seems like I actually have the older GPEC2A version in my truck despite it being a mid-2022 build. So, I am now reconsidering a Supercharger, but am really torn based on the overwhelming number of issues people seem to be having. Now, it's totally possible that there are tons of Gladiators out there running superchargers just fine and have no reason to complain on the forums. But, I suspect that probably isn't the case.

Based on what I've read, it seems like most of the issues are due to the tunes - either the ones supplied by the manufacturer or even custom tunes done by tuners. What I am trying to determine is - what exactly is the root cause of these tunes leading to failures?

Now, for context, I come from the Subaru community where aftermarket upgrades and tunes are very very common. In stock form, the WRX/STI platforms have iffy reliability - some of it is hardware related (weak ringlands), but a lot of it is due to the factory tune. Generally, for those cars, even "off-the-shelf" aftermarket tunes are kind of considered last resorts, and everyone typically gets a "pro-tune" done by an actual tuner that is specific to their car, their mods, their elevation, fuel, etc. Once that's done, assuming you don't abuse the car, reliability is pretty good.

But, the things that tend to be common across most of the failures for those cars is (1) not letting the car fully warm up before really getting into boost, (2) partial-throttle high load situations where boost continues to build but no additional fuel is being sent - this is mostly due to the transition from open loop to closed loop that is inherent in the ECU's, and (3) general poor maintenance like too infrequent oil changes, running the wrong oil weight, bad gas, etc.

Basically - the issues are either user error, or bad tunes. Rarely bad hardware (unless you install something that requires a tune/retune and you fail to do that).

Are these the same things that are causing the supercharged Gladiators to fail too? Or, is there something inherently wrong with either the stock engine or supercharger kit hardware that is the cause? I know that some of the folks here have run custom tunes and still had failures - and I'm wondering if maybe they were caused by something unrelated to the tune like not letting the car warm up, or partial throttle-full boost situations, etc.

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[staying_tuned]

Good stuff, many of us have a tuning and general mod background. I was dead set on the 3.6, diving all the way down to picking up a cheap reman (3.6 short block is dirt cheap) to build it from the bottom up while keeping mine running until the swap. I had all this planned before I bought my gladiator. A few months went by and I ended up hawking a number of threads (tune related) and it seemed that most were having issues but worst of all, things weren’t getting better. Think focus RS towards the tail end of the mod hype… just kind of fizzled out after enough failure.

It isn’t because folks unreasonably think a canned e-tune is magic. The platform, from an F/I perspective is fraught on all major areas starting with its construction, compression ratio, random anomalies found in the stock tuning and general long term reliability issues when tuned. The communities lead tuner left (although I think he still supports some) and that’s that.

I’ve heard of at least 3 folks running them on the maggie tune no issues but that’s it. It’s a vast outlay for nominal power on a motor that really doesn’t have the foundation to justify the cost.

If I had stuck with a 3.6 (ended up with an EcoD) I would have nabbed one of the plentiful high mile rubis in the low 30s and gone straight for a hemi swap.

 

[Minty JL]

Lucky on the GPEC2.........but tuning has been problematic for many.

Hopefully you can find a good vendor or shop to square you away when the time comes. Dyno tuning for boosted applications is highly recommended as you already know

 

[Josh00333]

I have 11k on mine, stock Maggi tune, 17k total. Of that 11k honestly apx 4000 is towing out west 6k pounds.

From all of the reading I have done, thread following etc. Dave is the brain on the tunes and issues. He still supports the platform and soon I'll do his tune. My tune has been good, but it "surges" (best way for me to describe it). Dave's is much smother in power delivery from all accounts.

I would place the failed motors 1/2 on the valve train. There have been many non tuned and tuned motors with valve train issues. Seems like a large run of bad heat treat and possible poor instillation, along with the kinda funky oiling system the 3.6 uses.

No tune can fix, prevent or save a motor that has a valve issue

The other issue is Jeep, they change so much so often in crazy timing placements (from reading Dave's posts) that tune A in rig A works GREAT! Tune A in motor B flops. Tune B in rig B works, but blows up rig C.

The other motors tuning issues with various tunes, and other outliers.

That said you supercharge/turbo a motor have a slush fund for a motor replacement planned.

From my local shop they have a dozen maggies running around in JT/JK/JL's. I've seen 2 (stickers on the back). In general on line you see 90% negative, for all the guys with no issues, they don't go searching for answers.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

As for the stock Maggie tune being ok, not so much. We had 2 forum members blow up their engines running stock Maggie tunes.

I am still running my conservative Dave tune. At this point I have about 13K and 2 years on mine. Dave was over 35K on his blower when he uninstalled it and installed a different one to test a tune he had created for it. When it blew up with the other supercharger installed, he never re-installed his and quit tuning for new clients.

After that it went quiet. The inability to tune the new ECM didn't help.

I still love mine. At 1800 RPM I push around 400 lb/ft of torque. I know I will need to rebuild the VVT system, but so will most people without a supercharger installed. If you do go FI be aware it seems to accelerate the issues with the VVT cam lobes flattening.

 

[kyoung05]

Appreciate all of the responses so far.

Sounds like there are inherent weaknesses in the 3.6 engine that are exacerbating the failures. Of course, having a bad tune never helps.

Assuming tunes are partly to blame - what about them exactly is causing the failures? Is it unexpected lean conditions that the ECU cannot seem to account for? Or, something else?

With any aftermarket modifications on modern cars, I would expect a fully custom or semi-custom tune would be necessary. This is the same reason why people don't just install something like a Cobb Accessport and use the off-the-shelf map Stage 1/2/etc. maps. Sure, there are some variables like Octane that Cobb has accounted for, but by and large, they are a cookie cutter tune that won't be a great fit for any one person.

What I am curious about is why there seems to be such a dearth of tuners for this platform? Are aftermarket tunes just not common in Jeeps at all? If the GPEC2A ECU's can in fact be tuned, and it sounds like they can - is there something inherently different about the Jeep ECU's that creates a higher barrier to entry for tuners than all of the other platforms out there, i.e. Camaros, Mustangs, BMW's, Honda's, Subarus, etc? All of those platforms have very robust tuner networks, and it's pretty commonplace to get dyno tuned after every significant modification to ensure your tune is always "up to date' for your specific car. Is it just a lack of demand in that most Jeep owners don't chase power mods the same way?

I get than certain engines are more prone to failure than others, and it seems like the 3.6 is one of those. Having driven some version of the Subaru EJ motor over the past 20 years, I am ok with that uncertainty. Aftermarket power mods are always "pay to play' and blowing your engine is always a risk. However, I am also used to being able to mitigate those risks - by working with reputable parts and even more importantly, reputable tuners. Also, educating myself on things I can do to prevent failures like using the right kind of oil (and checking oil levels frequently), letting the car fully warm up before getting on it, and avoiding boost at partial throttle/low RPM's.

I guess one bright spot is that the 3.6 engines seem plentiful, and a new/refurbished short block is fairly reasonably priced ($3-5k based on a quick search). So, if the worst case scenario were to occur, seems like it's going to cost about the same as the supercharger kit cost in the first place to get the truck up and running again. Not great, but far from the worst outcome I guess...

 

[River2016]

I have 11k on mine, stock Maggi tune, 17k total. Of that 11k honestly apx 4000 is towing out west 6k pounds.

From all of the reading I have done, thread following etc. Dave is the brain on the tunes and issues. He still supports the platform and soon I'll do his tune. My tune has been good, but it "surges" (best way for me to describe it). Dave's is much smother in power delivery from all accounts.

I would place the failed motors 1/2 on the valve train. There have been many non tuned and tuned motors with valve train issues. Seems like a large run of bad heat treat and possible poor instillation, along with the kinda funky oiling system the 3.6 uses.

No tune can fix, prevent or save a motor that has a valve issue

The other issue is Jeep, they change so much so often in crazy timing placements (from reading Dave's posts) that tune A in rig A works GREAT! Tune A in motor B flops. Tune B in rig B works, but blows up rig C.

The other motors tuning issues with various tunes, and other outliers.

That said you supercharge/turbo a motor have a slush fund for a motor replacement planned.

From my local shop they have a dozen maggies running around in JT/JK/JL's. I've seen 2 (stickers on the back). In general on line you see 90% negative, for all the guys with no issues, they don't go searching for answers.

I second this in regards to seeing 90% negative feedback online. I know multiple guys in my area with forced induction jk and jl who don’t have any major issues either. I also decided on the centrifugal blower because I liked the way it builds boost. I had it dyno tuned and had them keep give a relatively conservative tune and whp number. Will it end of making any difference? No clue. Sometimes it just seems like part of it is luck of a good vs faulty fca motor in addition to anything else.

 

[TheRealStreetcommander]

HP Tuners seems to be the software all the Tuners use to create “tunes”. I’m not sure how powerful/capable the available tuning software really is frankly. I’m a recovering industrial controls guy, so I’ve done a good bit of programming, machine design, and process controls. In my world, we would call the level of effort needed to make a supercharged engine run well, programming. When I “tune” something, I’m just making very minor adjustments to an already well-developed program -optimization if you will.

Going from NA to FI on an engine would require actual programming in my view. Entire new control routines, and significant revisions to the existing engine managment strategy, and safeties.

The fact that the industry calls what they do “tunes” may likely be why there’s been very little success. Very eager and respectable “tuners” may simply lack the tools required to be successful on the Jeep product.

If Ferrari can build a twin turbo pentastar blocked engine for Maserati, and make it live, I would bet the pentastar is not a fundamentally flawed design. The Subaru engine products are absolutely fundamentally flawed. No one can make them live, except on accident.

 

[MarylandMojave]

I had one and put 22k miles on with 0 issues. My problem was it really didn’t feel like it changed the truck enough to justify the spend. It was a waste of money to me. I have a 392 swapped in now, should have just done that from the start.

 

[cmb396]

I had one and put 22k miles on with 0 issues. My problem was it really didn’t feel like it changed the truck enough to justify the spend. It was a waste of money to me. I have a 392 swapped in now, should have just done that from the start.

After purchasing a 392 last summer for my wife, I will agree with this statement. While my maggi JTR runs well on 39's and 513 gears, it in no way compares to the 392, not even close.
All that said, I bought my SC used, did the install myself, and run dave's tune. All said and done, I had around 5k in it. I've looked into a 392 swap, and its, what, around 35k? Well worth it I'm sure, but not a mod most can afford to add on top of a $50k vehicle out of pocket.

 

[MarylandMojave]

After purchasing a 392 last summer for my wife, I will agree with this statement. While my maggi JTR runs well on 39's and 513 gears, it in no way compares to the 392, not even close.
All that said, I bought my SC used, did the install myself, and run dave's tune. All said and done, I had around 5k in it. I've looked into a 392 swap, and its, what, around 35k? Well worth it I'm sure, but not a mod most can afford to add on top of a $50k vehicle out of pocket.

My Magnuson was @$9500 all in. The 392 swap will run at least $40k because there is some suspension work that. should be done as well, and you need the Rubicon transfer case if you are doing it to any other trim. I agree it's not cheap, but neither is $9500 for 0 gain.

To get back on subject, there are plenty of super charged wranglers with 0 issues. 90% of the "it will blow up" posts are from "someone that heard" and not real life examples. Like anything else online, people post the bad experiences, not the good.

 

[cmb396]

My Magnuson was @$9500 all in. The 392 swap will run at least $40k because there is some suspension work that. should be done as well, and you need the Rubicon transfer case if you are doing it to any other trim. I agree it's not cheap, but neither is $9500 for 0 gain.

To get back on subject, there are plenty of super charged wranglers with 0 issues. 90% of the "it will blow up" posts are from "someone that heard" and not real life examples. Like anything else online, people post the bad experiences, not the good.

I wouldn't say zero gain at all in my case. My JTR runs 10x better than prior. I have no issues pulling my opus camper through the mountains at 70 in 6th gear (auto) and keeping rpms low. The torque is great. That said, the truck does not feel fast in the least compared to the 392, but the power level is there. All that and I get better mpg towing with the JTR compared to my 2023 F150 raptor.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

So the biggest challenge I have seen with these is the low RPM highway running. At WOT these are easy to tune, and you can get some crazy HP and Torque numbers at WOT.

The factory tune is super lean, especially at highway speeds. Everything leans way out, which is how they got the MPG they did. What happens is you get on the highway running down the road and you hit an overpass, or slight hill. The vehicle is so lean that by the time the ECM realizes it needs more fuel, the motor has already shelled out. This accounts for probably half of the shelled engines I have heard of.


As far as the member who is trying to compare how the vehicle runs with a 392 compared to this, my change seems to be more dramatic than yours.

I was running a sport s with 3.73 gearing. Neutered is what it drove like! It had absolutely no balls. I live in flat Florida, and it couldn't hold 75 on the highway going over the slightest grade. With my supercharger, it can pull a 5K trailer down the highway with the cruise set and I don't lose speed on any hill around here. When it rains, I have to be very careful at every start because it will spin the tires. Tune is critical, I am running a conservative tune, I know I left 50 to 100 HP and probably similar torque on the shelf in the interest of a stable tune. I am ok with that as I want to see 100K miles on this engine. I figure the VVT will need rebuilt at least twice before that point. I keep hoping someone will create a hardened set of cams for this as the biggest problem seems to be soft cams from FCA.

I will cross the bridge of what goes back on the engine when I have to rebuild the VVT the first time. I may just go back to stock and gear up to 4.88. It would probably cost me the same as repairing the VVT and putting the Maggie back on.

 

[JeepOfTheseus]

So the biggest challenge I have seen with these is the low RPM highway running.

In my case, YUP.

 

[GEETCH]

As for the stock Maggie tune being ok, not so much. We had 2 forum members blow up their engines running stock Maggie tunes.

I am still running my conservative Dave tune. At this point I have about 13K and 2 years on mine. Dave was over 35K on his blower when he uninstalled it and installed a different one to test a tune he had created for it. When it blew up with the other supercharger installed, he never re-installed his and quit tuning for new clients.

After that it went quiet. The inability to tune the new ECM didn't help.

I still love mine. At 1800 RPM I push around 400 lb/ft of torque. I know I will need to rebuild the VVT system, but so will most people without a supercharger installed. If you do go FI be aware it seems to accelerate the issues with the VVT cam lobes flattening.

I installed my maggi in 2021, and was in extensive talks with Dave as well about my maggi tune. I am still running the original tune from maggi, its been on the truck for 2 years and ive put almost 40k miles on it now.

i have been following the threads as well on motor issues, ticking, codes, blown tops etc. so far i have been fortunate, and may need to redo the cams eventually. but as of now, things are going well and i do wheel it hard.

from what ive been able to gather, its a gamble. never know when or who is going to have an issue and what the TRUE root cause is for it unfortunately. just my .02

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