Sponsored

Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?!

Wolf Island Diver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Threads
21
Messages
842
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Virginia
Vehicle(s)
2021 JT Rubicon EcoDiesel
Occupation
Software Engineer
Are you implying the bolt holes will be wallowed out? If so, the cause of that is not big tires. The cause is loose bolts that were not addressed in a timely manner.
Then don’t check them. 🤷‍♂️ Bigger tires place more stress on all of these mounts. Mine were torqued beyond spec and rechecked. They’re marked and I visually inspect them every couple of weeks. I recheck the torque of every suspension and steering bolt every time I wheel and every 3-4 months. I even remove the brake calipers and visually inspect them if I’ve driven through mud. All the bolts have remained dead on.

When I went to put on new 3” springs, I loosed all of the control arms. You MUST do this if changing spring rate/ride height. One of my LCA mounts has started showing some minor wear. It’s not terrible. But this doesn’t surprise me at all as the bolt isn’t an interference fit, the bracketry is relatively thin, and there’s a lot more load on the system. This wear could have even happened prior to the lift, considering that my body mounts were loose. The factory has lots of issues with torquing things. Another reason people should check their stuff.

I couldn’t keep the track bar tight on my TJ. I could snap hardended bolts with a torque gun. Nothing was ever tight enough. I tig welded on thicker mounting plates at the axle side to fix it.

This is the nature of lifted trucks especially if used off road. There’s a massive increase in load on all components. Folks should be checking the torque of their control arm bolts regularly and pull the bolts at least once a year to check for wear depending on use. Also people should just expect that the wear factor, margin of safety and MTTF of these components has been altered by the cumulative effects of mods and harder usage. The control arm mounts, bolts and associated torque specs were never designed for 37 inch tires let alone 40s. It makes me curious if the specs are different on the Recon package with factory 37s. My diesel has frame gussets, cast iron knuckles, etc., just for the additional weight of that engine.
Sponsored

 

Deleted member 28696

So I am considering trying to get 40’s under my 22 Willys.
Some light reading and researching tells me that pretty much requires Dana 60 ultimates, fender swap and a lift kit.

lifts are pricey but achievable. Fenders are a bit simpler (if still a lot of money) but how in the world can people afford to buy Dana ult 60’s?

just about everything I found said that thy were about 20000 for a pair.
And that doesn’t even include whatever else you have to do after that.

is there a secret way that people manage this kind of mod other than just have fantastic money?

is it better to find them in a scrap yard or something ?
That's the reason why I went with 37's instead of 40's since 37's doesn't require Dana 60's or 80s. They do have 38's which will work with the Rubicon Dana 44 Axels as well. I did regear to 5.13 for my setup. I did have my shop install on a 3-3 1/2" JKS J-Venture lift with Fox 2.0 Performance shocks but I would recommend heavier springs for the rear if you wanted to put on a rack or a Cap. I had to replace the rear JKS lift springs with RAM 1500 Mod springs and Sumo springs 1800lb bump stops when I put on an RSI EVO A Cap otherwise it will sag and cause shock failure etc. Happy with my setup wouldn't really want to go much bigger or I'd need a ladder. Had to add some RSI Power side steps just to get in as it is.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Wheelin98TJ

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ryan
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Threads
7
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
2,144
Location
Devils Lake, MI
Vehicle(s)
2021 Jeep Gladiator
Occupation
Bean Counter
Then don’t check them. 🤷‍♂️ Bigger tires place more stress on all of these mounts. Mine were torqued beyond spec and rechecked. They’re marked and I visually inspect them every couple of weeks. I recheck the torque of every suspension and steering bolt every time I wheel and every 3-4 months. I even remove the brake calipers and visually inspect them if I’ve driven through mud. All the bolts have remained dead on.

When I went to put on new 3” springs, I loosed all of the control arms. You MUST do this if changing spring rate/ride height. One of my LCA mounts has started showing some minor wear. It’s not terrible. But this doesn’t surprise me at all as the bolt isn’t an interference fit, the bracketry is relatively thin, and there’s a lot more load on the system. This wear could have even happened prior to the lift, considering that my body mounts were loose. The factory has lots of issues with torquing things. Another reason people should check their stuff.

I couldn’t keep the track bar tight on my TJ. I could snap hardended bolts with a torque gun. Nothing was ever tight enough. I tig welded on thicker mounting plates at the axle side to fix it.

This is the nature of lifted trucks especially if used off road. There’s a massive increase in load on all components. Folks should be checking the torque of their control arm bolts regularly and pull the bolts at least once a year to check for wear depending on use. Also people should just expect that the wear factor, margin of safety and MTTF of these components has been altered by the cumulative effects of mods and harder usage. The control arm mounts, bolts and associated torque specs were never designed for 37 inch tires let alone 40s. It makes me curious if the specs are different on the Recon package with factory 37s. My diesel has frame gussets, cast iron knuckles, etc., just for the additional weight of that engine.
Many TJs had slotted control arm brackets from the factory. You probably already know this.

It’s not an interference fit as you said.

The bolt hole doesn’t matter unless it’s completely f’ed. That won’t happen unless you ignore a noise for awhile.
 

Wolf Island Diver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Threads
21
Messages
842
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Virginia
Vehicle(s)
2021 JT Rubicon EcoDiesel
Occupation
Software Engineer
Many TJs had slotted control arm brackets from the factory. You probably already know this.

It’s not an interference fit as you said.

The bolt hole doesn’t matter unless it’s completely f’ed. That won’t happen unless you ignore a noise for awhile.
I never said anything was an interference fit or should be. I never compared the JT’s control arms to the TJs. I was using the TJ to illustrate a point since the track bar issue well very common on lifted TJs. On the weird Rubicon “D44” on the TJs which wasn’t exactly a D44, the track bar bracket didn’t capture the entire surface of the trackbars, particularly if they were oversized aftermarket ones from a lift. They were notorious for coming loose regardless of how much torque you applied the the bolt. I used to carry extra hardened track bar bolts for myself and others on the trails.

The ability of any bracket/control arm interface to remain stationary and not slide back and forth is a function of the quality and area of the mating surfaces, quality of the brackets, torque and typical loads encountered. Stock TJs had far less issues with the track bar. The additional leverage of the lift and tires and the lack of full capture of the surface the track bar resulted in issues. The solution was to reinforce the axle bracket with additional thickness of material. Companies even sold these. The holes in the bracket thus increased in depth, were tighter tolerance, covered more of the bar end, and the bracket was made much stiffer. A little more material on the outside of the bracket would fix the issue. No more additional torque needed or broken bolts. There’s a reason Dynatrac’s axle bracketry is much heavier duty than oem even on their D44s.

I’m not saying that the JT’s LCA have the same issue as the TJ D44 track bar bracket , but anytime you run larger tires and lift a vehicle and then take it off road, you’re increasing the loads on these interfaces. They were designed for a certain loads based on stock, so It’s prudent to check them more often. The bolts on the JTs LCAs are a bit sloppy naturally, so there’s room for them to move quite a bit. The material of the brackets is thin. It compresses a lot, so the interface isn’t great. I’m sure it’s fine for stock and it’s probably good enough for mild lifts and tires. I don’t think it’s controversial to advise folks to check these more often on a lifted vehicle, but I don’t care if people do or not.

It’s also worth mentioning that last week my new dealer informed me that Jeeps, particularly Gladiators, built between Dec 20 and June 21 tend to have a lot of problems with things like improper torquing of fasteners among other issues, because they were having massive quality control and green labor problems during that period. 4 of the 6 cab body mounts on my truck had issues. 1 was hand tight. I’ve found lots of other issues with my truck that I’ve just fixed. Another good reason for people to check their bolts. They’re also engineering issues that come up like the debonding door skins, or the fuel pumps incompatibility with US low sulfur diesel. Other companies have had issues with control arms and brackets. This generation of D44 was designed to shed weight as well. They did a lot to remove material deemed unneeded for the stock configurations. The dude from Dynatrac does a good breakdown of the changes and he largely has a positive view of them.
 

Sponsored

Wheelin98TJ

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ryan
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Threads
7
Messages
1,897
Reaction score
2,144
Location
Devils Lake, MI
Vehicle(s)
2021 Jeep Gladiator
Occupation
Bean Counter
I never said anything was an interference fit or should be. I never compared the JT’s control arms to the TJs. I was using the TJ to illustrate a point since the track bar issue well very common on lifted TJs. On the weird Rubicon “D44” on the TJs which wasn’t exactly a D44, the track bar bracket didn’t capture the entire surface of the trackbars, particularly if they were oversized aftermarket ones from a lift. They were notorious for coming loose regardless of how much torque you applied the the bolt. I used to carry extra hardened track bar bolts for myself and others on the trails.

The ability of any bracket/control arm interface to remain stationary and not slide back and forth is a function of the quality and area of the mating surfaces, quality of the brackets, torque and typical loads encountered. Stock TJs had far less issues with the track bar. The additional leverage of the lift and tires and the lack of full capture of the surface the track bar resulted in issues. The solution was to reinforce the axle bracket with additional thickness of material. Companies even sold these. The holes in the bracket thus increased in depth, were tighter tolerance, covered more of the bar end, and the bracket was made much stiffer. A little more material on the outside of the bracket would fix the issue. No more additional torque needed or broken bolts. There’s a reason Dynatrac’s axle bracketry is much heavier duty than oem even on their D44s.

I’m not saying that the JT’s LCA have the same issue as the TJ D44 track bar bracket , but anytime you run larger tires and lift a vehicle and then take it off road, you’re increasing the loads on these interfaces. They were designed for a certain loads based on stock, so It’s prudent to check them more often. The bolts on the JTs LCAs are a bit sloppy naturally, so there’s room for them to move quite a bit. The material of the brackets is thin. It compresses a lot, so the interface isn’t great. I’m sure it’s fine for stock and it’s probably good enough for mild lifts and tires. I don’t think it’s controversial to advise folks to check these more often on a lifted vehicle, but I don’t care if people do or not.

It’s also worth mentioning that last week my new dealer informed me that Jeeps, particularly Gladiators, built between Dec 20 and June 21 tend to have a lot of problems with things like improper torquing of fasteners among other issues, because they were having massive quality control and green labor problems during that period. 4 of the 6 cab body mounts on my truck had issues. 1 was hand tight. I’ve found lots of other issues with my truck that I’ve just fixed. Another good reason for people to check their bolts. They’re also engineering issues that come up like the debonding door skins, or the fuel pumps incompatibility with US low sulfur diesel. Other companies have had issues with control arms and brackets. This generation of D44 was designed to shed weight as well. They did a lot to remove material deemed unneeded for the stock configurations. The dude from Dynatrac does a good breakdown of the changes and he largely has a positive view of them.
I know you didn't say anything was an interference fit. I said "It’s not an interference fit as you said" to reiterate the point it is not an interference fit.

I brought up the TJ slotted control arm brackets because you know TJs and those huge, slotted bolt holes are capable of keeping arms in place as long as the bolt is properly torqued.

Your original comment that I didn't agree with was:

"I would encourage anyone running 37s to pull the bolts and take a look at their rear LCA D44 axle mounts after 6 months. Same goes for the track bar. We’ll all be replacing axles or welding on new mounts eventually...."

Replacing axles is definitely not necessary and welding on mounts is very unlikely to be necessary. Keep bolts properly torqued, don't ignore clunks, this is obvious stuff. If a bolt hole becomes oblonged, tighten the bolt back up.
 

FitfulGoat

Well-Known Member
First Name
Beau
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Threads
3
Messages
506
Reaction score
797
Location
New Mexico
Vehicle(s)
2020 Gladiator Rubicon LE
Occupation
Operations Leadership
I know you didn't say anything was an interference fit. I said "It’s not an interference fit as you said" to reiterate the point it is not an interference fit.

I brought up the TJ slotted control arm brackets because you know TJs and those huge, slotted bolt holes are capable of keeping arms in place as long as the bolt is properly torqued.

Your original comment that I didn't agree with was:

"I would encourage anyone running 37s to pull the bolts and take a look at their rear LCA D44 axle mounts after 6 months. Same goes for the track bar. We’ll all be replacing axles or welding on new mounts eventually...."

Replacing axles is definitely not necessary and welding on mounts is very unlikely to be necessary. Keep bolts properly torqued, don't ignore clunks, this is obvious stuff. If a bolt hole becomes oblonged, tighten the bolt back up.
With the number of individuals running 37’s on stock gladiators I would agree 100%.

Welding on new brackets/mounts is an extreme and may be needed after a significant number of miles in the rust belt but I’ve not heard of a single case otherwise. This is including a number of individuals I personally know with 40-50k miles on stock JT and JL D44’s and 37’s (please note these are not mall crawlers either)

@Wolf Island Diver any photos or additional examples of the damage/concern you have seen personally?
 

AstroZombie

Well-Known Member
First Name
Arthur
Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Threads
14
Messages
940
Reaction score
1,048
Location
Poway, CA
Vehicle(s)
2021 Gladiator Rubicon, '04 Tacoma PreRunner
Occupation
Tech Support
No one who owns a Gladiator is poor. Not every owner is in a position to dump half the price of the vehicle into mods for the privilege of beating the hell out of their expensive toy on trails.
i am. My kids don't eat because i have a gladiator
 

Minty JL

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jeremy
Joined
May 15, 2019
Threads
14
Messages
2,739
Reaction score
3,924
Location
Ft Meade, MD - AOR
Vehicle(s)
23 XC90 - 23 JTM - 19 JLUR - 04 355 ZQ8
Occupation
USA(R), DoD Field Ops Engineer
I followed ticktock financial advice, formed an LLC and wrote the entire thing off on my taxes.
OH the newly hired IRS agents are going to love you for that move LOL
 

Wolf Island Diver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Threads
21
Messages
842
Reaction score
1,814
Location
Virginia
Vehicle(s)
2021 JT Rubicon EcoDiesel
Occupation
Software Engineer
This is silly so it’s my last post on this topic. Jeep fucked up with the JL/JT. They made a truck where the entry to big tires was a cheap spacer lift. People took that to mean, if it fits it’s fine. The D44 is not designed to handle a 37 inch tire. That’s just a fact. It’s a settled, excepted fact. It’s stupid to argue about it and I’m not going to continue. Don’t take the word of some anonymous dude (me) on a forum. Get on the phone and call Dana/Spicer and ask them. Having to provide pictures is like having to prove to someone that the earth is round.

In the late 90s to early aughts, 35s were considered “big tires”. People would routinely swap out to junkyard 60s to run them or cross their fingers on stock D44 and D30s. People broke shit all the time. 40s and up were for rock crawlers and redneck mudders. Now somehow we’ve normalized everyone running 37s on fundamentally the same size axle and u-joints, and a much heavier vehicle. In those days I was the idiot with giant 35s doing crazy shit, my auto mechanic family members ragged on. I got excoriated the other week on here for saying you could increase load capacity with heavier springs. I was told that my modified JT was dangerous. Now somehow, I’m the D44 Cassandra 😳. That’s the internet I guess. All the mechanics I know would get a kick out of this.

The fact that “lots of people here” run 37s, including me, doesn’t matter at all. For one forums are exhibit A for bad sampling and confirmation bias. You can drive around without a seatbelt and eat hotdogs every meal and live to be 90. That doesn’t mean you didn’t change your risk profile. I actually got stuck behind a guy slow wheeling his Acura Integra up a trail once! And he made it! You can mall crawl around on 40s on a Dana 30. Eventually, shit will be so ragged, no mechanic will touch it.

There’s some kind of perception in the Jeep community today that if a 2 year old truck that’s been lifted 9 months doesn’t grenade itself rolling down the highway, all is well 😂. Keep telling yourselves that, but at least check your bolts. Shit will wear out faster on these trucks running 37s. Or don’t, I don’t care. This is a forum, not my 4x4 club. I have no stake in what happens to anyone’s truck if they refuse to change their risk calculations after modifying it.

Personally, I don’t plan on keeping stock D44s. I’m not concerned that they will blow up next week, but eventually I expect to see more issues if I keep wheeling it hard. I attempt to mitigate/delay that with more care and maintenance, but like the Radiohead lyrics say, “gravity always wins.” For the money of upgraded shafts, I’ll probably switch to Dynatrac axles at some point and then consider moving up to 40s myself so then I can just break my frame instead.
 

Sponsored

First Name
John
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Threads
0
Messages
7
Reaction score
8
Location
Las Vegas
Vehicle(s)
'03 Silverado 2500HD
Occupation
Construction Management
If you’re a business owner, write off as business expense….

especially if you need to “deliver” your products or services….😂😂
 

AstroZombie

Well-Known Member
First Name
Arthur
Joined
Aug 18, 2021
Threads
14
Messages
940
Reaction score
1,048
Location
Poway, CA
Vehicle(s)
2021 Gladiator Rubicon, '04 Tacoma PreRunner
Occupation
Tech Support
This is silly so it’s my last post on this topic. Jeep fucked up with the JL/JT. They made a truck where the entry to big tires was a cheap spacer lift. People took that to mean, if it fits it’s fine. The D44 is not designed to handle a 37 inch tire. That’s just a fact. It’s a settled, excepted fact. It’s stupid to argue about it and I’m not going to continue. Don’t take the word of some anonymous dude (me) on a forum. Get on the phone and call Dana/Spicer and ask them. Having to provide pictures is like having to prove to someone that the earth is round.

In the late 90s to early aughts, 35s were considered “big tires”. People would routinely swap out to junkyard 60s to run them or cross their fingers on stock D44 and D30s. People broke shit all the time. 40s and up were for rock crawlers and redneck mudders. Now somehow we’ve normalized everyone running 37s on fundamentally the same size axle and u-joints, and a much heavier vehicle. In those days I was the idiot with giant 35s doing crazy shit, my auto mechanic family members ragged on. I got excoriated the other week on here for saying you could increase load capacity with heavier springs. I was told that my modified JT was dangerous. Now somehow, I’m the D44 Cassandra 😳. That’s the internet I guess. All the mechanics I know would get a kick out of this.

The fact that “lots of people here” run 37s, including me, doesn’t matter at all. For one forums are exhibit A for bad sampling and confirmation bias. You can drive around without a seatbelt and eat hotdogs every meal and live to be 90. That doesn’t mean you didn’t change your risk profile. I actually got stuck behind a guy slow wheeling his Acura Integra up a trail once! And he made it! You can mall crawl around on 40s on a Dana 30. Eventually, shit will be so ragged, no mechanic will touch it.

There’s some kind of perception in the Jeep community today that if a 2 year old truck that’s been lifted 9 months doesn’t grenade itself rolling down the highway, all is well 😂. Keep telling yourselves that, but at least check your bolts. Shit will wear out faster on these trucks running 37s. Or don’t, I don’t care. This is a forum, not my 4x4 club. I have no stake in what happens to anyone’s truck if they refuse to change their risk calculations after modifying it.

Personally, I don’t plan on keeping stock D44s. I’m not concerned that they will blow up next week, but eventually I expect to see more issues if I keep wheeling it hard. I attempt to mitigate/delay that with more care and maintenance, but like the Radiohead lyrics say, “gravity always wins.” For the money of upgraded shafts, I’ll probably switch to Dynatrac axles at some point and then consider moving up to 40s myself so then I can just break my frame instead.
I like this! Everyone's risk calculations are different! Thanks Cassandra!!
 

SuperUltraMan

Banned
Banned
Joined
Mar 8, 2022
Threads
18
Messages
133
Reaction score
189
Location
North Carolina
Vehicle(s)
JT Gladiator Rubicon, JL Wrangler Rubicon
Occupation
Human Being
JEEP=Just Empty Every Pocket
She doesn’t argue, takes everything I can put in her, not picky about her meals although she does eat a lot, and always goes anywhere I want.
Ladies are expensive.
…( And get educated about the real strength of these HD D44s if you’re concerned. The bearings, housing materials and metallurgy, and light weights with high clearance makes these great platforms for improvement. Driving habits keep them alive. 25+ years I’ve been driving with huge, heavy tires on Chevy 10 bolts, AMC or D35 rears with D30 fronts, or the previous D44s on the early TJ and JK Rubis.
Make the suspension articulate freely without bind, simple weld additions in some key places, eliminate or build-up known weak points, and drive without a heavy foot or needy ego.
I use mine like a truck and a Jeep and it works great for both. Jeeps have always needed maintenance and repair to keep them alive and that’s the fun part.
That’s why Jeepers started to wave at each other because they knew that other driver was a like-minded self-reliant and capable person that got their hands dirty to keep doing the things they love and go where only they could go.)

Jeep Gladiator Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?! 36E764F5-4A77-4B9C-8DE4-09D2C44E0F65
Jeep Gladiator Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?! F809A3DC-34C4-4EA2-8C15-3A27D796B045
Jeep Gladiator Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?! AAFC6995-22B5-4822-97D2-26E9F9499F6F
Jeep Gladiator Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?! 7EC8E287-6980-4D2D-A2E1-290FCA0DB3AE
Jeep Gladiator Are you all super rich or is there a method I don’t get?! F0495C86-56B6-4C14-B6D4-9CD72D3CAD7E
 
Last edited:

Davekayc

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dave
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
127
Reaction score
99
Location
BC
Vehicle(s)
21 diesel
Occupation
Roadbuilder
Easier to fix the stock rubicon junk when it breaks rather than add a ton of expensive stuff that wont get you further up the trail . If mine gets junky after running 37s I will trade it in as fast as my factory order happens . And not be married to a vehicle that I’ve got way too much money into. I can literally take the stuff I fabbed myself off and on to a new jeep in an afternoon and be tens of dollars ahead with the new jeep smell. I’ve gone the route of expensive add ons. You end up keeping it until its a pile of shit that has silver in every fluid. Scratched dented rusty cracked manifold sloppy steering junk. The stock rubi axels will get you where ever you should go. And without financing and paying interest on something you are now stuck with. Theyre about effed by the time the payments are up. I run full load diesel the mopar lift. Hutchinson double beadlocks with 37 nittos. I Fabbed a 10k 8274 winch bumper just because i hate all the stealth bomber bolt on crap . Voila , wheeling.
 
 



Top