Control arm length with geo brackets

[Zachanadandy]

Again, we all know the theory.

The idea isn't that arm angle doesn't matter. The idea is that arm angle doesn't matter at reasonable lift heights.

Your one simple test may have convinced you, but it's a pretty limited scope. There are guys that do this for a living, they do it on countless rigs, they do a lot more testing than the average Jeeper, and they say arm angle doesn't matter on reasonable lift heights.

It doesn't take a mathematician to know for a fact that it does though? Matter enough that you need drop brackets? No. But your lifted jeep will ride better with them period. It's obvious, it's logical, and I've actually proven it myself. I'm sure those guys selling you $1,500 in control arms instead of $200 in brackets couldn't possibly be biased though...

Sponsored

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

It doesn't take a mathematician to know for a fact that it does though? Matter enough that you need drop brackets? No. But your lifted jeep will ride better with them period. It's obvious, it's logical, and I've actually proven it myself. I'm sure those guys selling you $1,500 in control arms instead of $200 in brackets couldn't possibly be biased though...

You're still hung up on the theory. A mathematician doesn't know what works when building a Jeep.

These builders put together Jeeps with no expense spared. You think if they could make it more streetable for $200, they wouldn't?

 

[Zachanadandy]

Drop brackets ride better than your $1500 arms according to everyone who's ever run both. It's not a theory it's reality. Anybody building no expense spared is running long arms, because they have all the benefits of drop brackets plus even less arc travel do to the larger radius and the potential for even greater suspension travel. Drop brackets get you about 70% of the benefits of long arms at 5% the cost with no cutting or welding. Those custom builds usually move the axle mounts up as well, further flattening the control arm angles.

 

[chorky]

I agree, there is a lot of subjectivity here.

It's not often you hear "terrible ride quality" and "absolutely increase NVH" about Johnny Joints. I don't agree with this based on my experience.

The guy behind Savvy Off-Road will tell you he can put an arm with any style joint under your rig and you won't be able to tell the difference.

When you say NVH is horrid and you can't have a conversation on the highway, that leads me to believe your joints are not causing the NVH. You sure it's not the tires or something else?

idk what experience you have but JJs definately increase NVH. Taking arm angle out of the equation look at the joint differences themselves. Factory joints are a clevite bushing with varying degrees of rubber hardness (durometer) depending on manufacturer. On the JT those bushings have about .75” of rubber that separates the connection of the axle, from the arm, and again from the arm, to the chassis. Now look at a JJ. Sure some of them do have a rubber sleve but that rubber is significantly thinner and most likely of a higher hardness. Maybe .25” at best. on top of that there are places all around the joint where there is direct metal to metal contact. This is also why I get pissed at companies that flaunt the sentence “and we use dual durometer bushings for NVH”. Well that doesnt say squat. Durometer is a measure of hardness but says nothing to how it performs because performance and NVH are directly affected by how hard or soft that ‘durometer’ bushing is. Metal transmits vibration to metal much easier than it does through rubber. A simple experiment of taking a metal hammer, striking it on a steel beam, then doing the same with a rubber mallet illustrates this law of physics. Nothing against savvy off road, they are knowledgable and I remember when they first developed. But they are absolutely wrong in saying they could put any arm under a Jeep and you wont notice. I know this for fact because, well physics for one, and I have JJ’s on my TJ. The effect is less noticeable on the JT because overall the vehicle as a whole is designed to transmit less NVH and soak up what is transmitted so the driver has a lower chance of recognizing it. In my case with the TJ, tires definitely made a negative difference. I replaced mine last year and the NVH got even worse due to the tire section. And this even proves my point all the more. If arms ‘dont’ transmit NVH, then why would tires make the inside of a cab louder and less comfortable to drive? That in itself is the real world of the definition of NVH. But even prior to that, NVH was a very noticeable increase after going from factory clevite bushings to JJ’s. Companies that sell them just try to water this fact down because they are a business to make money. So naturally they are biased toward their own product. Nothing surprising about that, everyone has bias for different reasons. And its not to say their product is bad. Off road, the JJ’s on my TJ are fantastic, and for what they are designed for they are the best it gets short of doing a long arm 3-link setup. But the fact remains, they do transmit NVH more than rubber. If someone really wanted to go to lengths to show just how much, they could get a NVH sensor, place it on various spots, and do a real world comparison. The subjective part is just how much a person notices the difference.

 

[Stan H]

I couldn’t agree more. Mine is lifted and on 37’s. With all eight adjustable arms, I’m around 5.6 degrees of caster, my pinion angles are good, in fact my rear pinion is between zero and one degree. It steers perfectly and I can cruise at 80mph with a trailer hooked up, and it’s comfortable and safe. And I can smack my control arms on rocks without worrying about stamped steel brackets breaking. I wouldn’t wheel with drop brackets either. I don’t even like the idea with a daily driver. It’s just adding more connections to loosen up.

I went with the Teraflex control arms to I am now a believer I sat mine at 5.4 ,I just did it so it may have to go a little more maybe .. but it drives like a dream on the 35x12.50x17... I stuck on it. I ran mine up to 70.. hardly anyplace in WV to get much faster ? but ran out smooth as silk.

 

[WILDHOBO]

I went with the Teraflex control arms to I am now a believer I sat mine at 5.4 ,I just did it so it may have to go a little more maybe .. but it drives like a dream on the 35x12.50x17... I stuck on it. I ran mine up to 70.. hardly anyplace in WV to get much faster ? but ran out smooth as silk.

Love it. Glad to hear. Did you get the IR arms as well?

 

[Gizmo]

I thought my JT drove and rode ok with 5.5 degrees of caster with MOPAR extended arms. As time went on I realized it could be better . I swapped the MOPAR extended lowers back to the OE arms and added Rancho Brackets . It went to 6.0 degrees and it tracks and rides better ,Much less steering correction required and smoother ride , more relaxed when driving it again, cross winds effect it less as does road surface . When opinions are all over the board on something this cheap I just try it myself, gives ya a something to measure opinions by if nothing else. I will be doing the same on my daughters JL soon as hers is also a daily driver also.

 

[Rusty PW]

I had Johnny joints on my Power Wagon. Didn't notice an increase of NVH. Mostly do to the MT tires. I didn't notice an increase with NVH on the JT because of the MT tires.

The geo brackets that I have are the Teraflex with their extra support brace. I've banged them pretty good at Rausch Creek. I did both Crawl Daddy and Crawler Ridge.

 

[Stan H]

Love it. Glad to hear. Did you get the IR arms as well?

No I didn't do the IR's because they were aluminum. I can't have aluminum. Too many rocks were I wheel . I was afraid I would tear them up and the warranty on those was less than the teraflex regular DOM tubing steel versions.

 

[WILDHOBO]

No I didn't do the IR's because they were aluminum. I can't have aluminum. Too many rocks were I wheel . I was afraid I would tear them up and the warranty on those was less than the teraflex regular DOM tubing steel versions.

They’re definitely not aluminum. They’re steel 42mm diameter with 4mm wall welded tubing.

 

[Stan H]

They’re definitely not aluminum. They’re steel 42mm diameter with 4mm wall welded tubing.

Yeah I am sure cause I called teraflex directly to confirm this was true if these are the same ones you was looking at. First Set of IR that I decided not to go with second set the ones I went with. The IR's are Aluminum and aluminum collar the others are steel with aluminum clamp collar . Also notice the Aluminum ones only come with a 3000 mile warranty whereas the other are limited lifetime warranty.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Yeah I am sure cause I called teraflex directly to confirm this was true if these are the same ones you was looking at. First Set of IR that I decided not to go with second set the ones I went with. The IR's are Aluminum and aluminum collar the others are steel with aluminum clamp collar . Also notice the Aluminum ones only come with a 3000 mile warranty whereas the other are limited lifetime warranty.

I recommend you lift them to check the weight. The site you posted isn’t even teraflex.

 

[Lunentucker]

Seems like a magnet is in order.

 

[Lunentucker]

Steel tubes and aluminum collars
https://teraflex.com/jl-jt-alpine-ir-short-control-arm-kit-front-lower-0-4-5-lift.html

 

[WILDHOBO]

Steel tubes and aluminum collars
https://teraflex.com/jl-jt-alpine-ir-short-control-arm-kit-front-lower-0-4-5-lift.html

Yep. I have eight of them and installed them personally. Aluminum arms with only 4mm wall thickness would have weighed almost nothing.

Sponsored