Diesel - Alternator huge backorder options

[rharr]

tomayto/tomahto

pulled from the denso website
" The most recent developments have focused on ‘Smart Charging’; technology that allows the alternator’s regulator and engine ECU to communicate and interact with one another. This emerging technology offers reliability and precision in the control of alternator output generation and distribution. In addition, charging times can be further increased, while it also enhances engine performance, idling stability with soft-start delay and load response control features. "

https://www.denso-am.eu/uk/news/june-newsletter-alternator-technology-powered-by-change

Modern alternators work in concert with the ECU to manage it's function.

Point being there are now more parts and pieces to go wrong (when subjected to mud) in a modern alternator then previous generations.

At the end of the day you just need something that spins and generates x amount of power with in a certain package size. It would be a interesting conversation with a alternator shop if they know of any other setups that have the same package size and output but less techno wizardry.

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[Deleted member 47279]

At least your not on here bitching that my jeep should take whatever I throw at it and it’s a piece of shit cuz the alternator went bad! Glad to see you own it and are not blaming the mfg.!!! Get it fixed soon as ya can and get back to it !lol

I just got a bunch of new mods too, so sad. but i did find an alternator! It should be here soon, but sketchy to say the least...stay tuned!!
https://www.carid.com/jeep-oe/alternator-mpn-68292740ab.html

 

[Glad_he_ate]

Nice!! Not too bad on price either lol

 

[Deleted member 47279]

Nice!! Not too bad on price either lol

if it A: works, and B: lasts. the price isnt bad. lol Also a local alternator shop rebuilt my alternator, but the pulley cant be found. as soon as they can source it ill have a backup alternator for my next mudding trip lol

 

[ShadowsPapa]

At the end of the day you just need something that spins and generates x amount of power with in a certain package size. It would be a interesting conversation with a alternator shop if they know of any other setups that have the same package size and output but less techno wizardry.

Not with modern batteries......... when you regulate at a set voltage like you are talking about, the AGM batteries go out the window.

(I know you hate my guts and dislike all I say, but I do happen to know some alternators, as I am an alternator shop if you ask the guys I do alternator work for..............
I've done Denso alternators for earlier Jeeps. I have alternators I've done on many dozens of vehicles)

If you want simple, you can control the field of an alternator with a 1970s MOPAR regulator (assuming the field type is correct, A vs. B field) - but it may not handle the field current on a 240 amp setup.
And you'll either over-charge these batteries or under-charge them.

 

[rharr]

Not with modern batteries......... when you regulate at a set voltage like you are talking about, the AGM batteries go out the window.

(I know you hate my guts and dislike all I say, but I do happen to know some alternators, as I am an alternator shop if you ask the guys I do alternator work for..............
I've done Denso alternators for earlier Jeeps. I have alternators I've done on many dozens of vehicles)

If you want simple, you can control the field of an alternator with a 1970s MOPAR regulator (assuming the field type is correct, A vs. B field) - but it may not handle the field current on a 240 amp setup.
And you'll either over-charge these batteries or under-charge them.

I don't hate your guts I just find you irritating the same way you likely find me.... like repels like.....

Battery tech is pretty advanced especially on the lithium side, with built-in battery control modules that shut down under and over voltages before it gets to the cells. AGM is still lead at it's core and can be more tolerant, at least that is what i have seen on the motorcycle side of things.

You think it's complicated now wait until Lithium-Ion batteries replace lead and consistent charge voltage becomes required so nothing goes boom boom.

At the end of the day modern batteries are happy with a float voltage of 13.5V~13.8V and a charge voltage of 14.4 volts. What is so hard about setting up the regulator to output 14.4 volts?

Hell i have had the same alternator in my honda civic for 20 years and I would think after 20 years of use it should be as dirty as a jeep alternator that got a splash of mud once.

Modern Side by Sides and motorcycles (my battery/charging experience realm) now use mosfet series regulator/rectifiers to push out a consistent 14.4v despite rpms. The technology in car alternators can't be that far off if not better. I think mosfet regulators are referred to as a switching regulator in loose terms vs the old shunt style linear ones.

I would assume correct me if I am wrong that the modern alternator uses a switching regulator to control voltage, and your AMC alternator would use a linear regulator?

All i am proposing is lets go back to a simple alternator that uses a more modern regulator design to output a consistent voltage to keep the battery happy and not worry about load matching, optimizing and engine speed over run, all that extra mumbo jumbo to save a few drops of gas. They are just more things to go wrong and fail when mud gets on them.

Basically can we stick a early 2000's honda civic alternator (j/K) in our jeeps to keep the reliably up at the expense of burning a little more fuel because the alternator is always on.

All i am trying to say is do we need this much complication in our life, cars have been charging batteries for 100 years why is it so hard to make something reliable.

 

[22EcoDs]

I'm just surprised nothing else uses this specific alt. Like the 3.0 from panel vans or the 1500? Not even mean green had one ?

 

[Deleted member 47279]

I'm just surprised nothing else uses this specific alt. Like the 3.0 from panel vans or the 1500? Not even mean green had one ?

i thought the same thing. well i wanted to flex that new ecodiesel, so now i gotta pay for it.

 

[rharr]

Just a thought, I will pay shipping if ASDGS wants to ship his busted alt to Shadow P for a autopsy.

I would love to know what fails after getting dirty/wet.

 

[Deleted member 47279]

Just a thought, I will pay shipping if ASDGS wants to ship his busted alt to Shadow P for a autopsy.

I would love to know what fails after getting dirty/wet.

appreciate it, but sadly i had it rebuilt. best to have a backup with todays supply chain issues.

 

[rharr]

That is a good plan, did the shop say what failed?

 

[Deleted member 47279]

That is a good plan, did the shop say what failed?

haven't picked it up yet, still looking for a new clutch pulley. Good news tho. the guys said he was impressed how much i fucked it up. so theres that...

 

[Deleted member 47279]

I know whats wrong with it...aint got no gas in it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Just a thought, I will pay shipping if ASDGS wants to ship his busted alt to Shadow P for a autopsy.

I would love to know what fails after getting dirty/wet.

I'll split the cost with you. I'd love to know myself. (sorry if I get pissy too often - stress triggers more drastic ADD reactions and my wife buying that new sewing machine (as complex as our trucks in some ways) she's tasked me with making it all fit into her big table while not preventing her using her older other machines in the same table if she wants to........ ugh.)

I've done a lot of alternators over the years, including Denso - and the opportunity to catch up on the current Denso line and see why getting wet causes problems would be fun. It makes NO sense! There's nothing in these as far as mechanical moving parts. It's all electric, electronic, no brushes, no switches, and should be all sealed.

For the general audience - not aimed at any person or persons, no one in particular, but for those 1,000 people looking who are not members of the forums -
Alternators are purely electronic devices.
There are no physical things in them other than front and rear bearings (generally sealed bearings, even the lame GM 10si used sealed bearings), and there were brushes and slip rings on earlier alternators - but for years now, they are brushless. No contacts, no springs, no carbon parts rubbing on copper rings, it's all done by magic like your wireless phone charger.

All other things were pretty water resistant even before today's brushless systems. In some cases, connections were even sealed and coated over with a substance similar to potting material used in electronics.
For reference - I can put a 1960s or 1970s Motorola regulator in a vibratory tumbler for several hours, meaning it's being vibrated to heck and back and sitting in cleaning solution. And I then test them - and I've never had one damaged by the tumbler. (people have sent me boxes of these things to clean, refinish and test)

Because these are brushless, there's no physical thing to be "shorted" or get wet. Water may have bridged the slip rings years ago and prevented the brushes from making contact with the slip rings, but with a modern alternator, like the Denso brushless, Delco 35si or later, etc., there's an exciter stator and exciter rotor - it works just like your connectionless phone charger.

Without brushes in the way- there is cooler operation, smoother air flow through the alternator, the current through the brush (usually a carbon compound) riding the copper slip rings also generates heat, besides blocking air flow which is normally from rear to front on most alternators.

There are other electronics involved - maybe - in some systems, as you don't want full field current at the main rotor instantly loading the alternator so there may be soft-start technology where it ramps up (I've witnessed this in the voltage readings of my own truck - after an ESS stop, then restart, the voltage slowly climbs back up. It starts low and slow and builds over a few seconds. This way it's easier to start or crank - no load on the alternator, once started, it ramps up to charge the batteries again.

Frankly, unless I'd be surprised by what I saw inside, they should be able to work while you wash them with a hose, running and charging.

All I can figure is since we're talking mud, not plain water, something is getting in there and tearing things apart, grit, sand, small rocks or stones. The clearances are close, very tight.

I haven't restored or rebuilt a brushless yet, but know how they function.
Exciter stator is given current to create magnetic field, exciter rotor spins in the exciter stator and generates field current - which is AC, it goes through a bridge rectifier to convert to DC then still in the main rotor, is fed to the main rotor coil which creates an alternating magnetic field as it spins, and this creates the AC in the main stator, converted to DC.

I don't have any on hand, all of my current parts are older, brush type system parts. Those I've worked on have been from 2005 and prior so I don't have parts on hand for newer stuff.

All of that being said - these alternators dying is weird.

A batch of alternator parts I bought on auction to sort through - mostly 15 year old stuff or older (field windings from a wiper motor, not alternator related)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I know whats wrong with it...aint got no gas in it.

It wasn't the water - it was the MUD
That makes total sense as these will run fine WET. Water has no impact on them, I have proven that by washing the engine while it's running (and even when not running a couple of times)
Mud - plugged the cooling, perhaps even got between one of the rotors or stators and scratched things up to the point of cutting windings (there are two stators and two rotors made into one physical stator piece and one physical rotors)
Once the cooling holes are blocked and air flow blocked, they'll get hot fast.

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