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ShadowsPapa

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One thing to be careful with as far as ATF, and LostWoods pointed in this direction - is that ATFs thee days are often formulated way differently and today we see LV and ULV ATFs.
Some of the fluids out there simply have almost no viscosity to them at all once they reach the temperatures used to test ATF (180 degrees as opposed to 230 for engine oil)
Manufacturers are spec'ing ATF for fuel efficiency these days so the specs are way different than what they used to be.
Typical ATFs we're used to have a cSt of about 22.......... but here's an example of differences:
Amsoil OE “Multi-Vehicle” Synthetic ATF has a cSt of 22
Amsoil OE “Fuel-Efficient” Synthetic ATF has a cSt of only 17 at temperature - extremely thin.

It's also been said here that a company's products may vary greatly in how "good" they are.
Picking on AMSOIL again - it' all over the map. One of their hypoid gear lubes is extremely poor performing and unable to stand up to pressure testing while some of their engine oils are in the top 5. Their ATFs appear to be quite good - very close to the top depending on which one you are looking at. They have several and fall into the top few.
Of course the performance of an ATF is dependent on a multitude of things - gear width, torque or pressure applied to each gear, clutch materials, clearances and so on - more than with engines or differentials.
One good example could be Ford Motorcraft Mercon LV ATF. It performs extremely poorly in certain tests - seizes under pressure and yet does fine in the Ford transmissions it is recommended for. Likely the transmission itself is the answer - gear widths, tooth surface areas and other things play into it. So use that one in Fords but nothing else.

Names are just that. A company may have a great product of one type but fail or do poorly with another.
So when I see shops or even gear vendors recommend a product by name - I'm wary. And of course, a product that was great 5 years ago may have been replaced by another that isn't as good as the one it replaces. We see that in engine oil, ATF, gear lubes and so on. Company ABC may have had one of the best gear lubes last year but it's been replaced and the replacement isn't quite as good - or in some cases, may be better.

Don't get stuck on a brand.
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NC_Overland

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That sucks. It was probably expensive to put all the amsoil in it. How many Harte does it take? The 8 speed in my Canyon took something stupid like 18 qts.
 
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Maximus Gladius

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That sucks. It was probably expensive to put all the amsoil in it. How many Harte does it take? The 8 speed in my Canyon took something stupid like 18 qts.
A bit expensive. I provided 18 litres and the flush took 17. I believe the transmission holds 9.5.
 

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A bit expensive. I provided 18 litres and the flush took 17. I believe the transmission holds 9.5.
That makes sense because I was looking at a warranty receipt from when the flushed mine with a new fluid when they fixed it.

Sorry you’re dealing with this.
 
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Maximus Gladius

Maximus Gladius

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I received a call from FCA about 30 min ago to say the truck is being pushed into the service bay and authorization given to locate the internal coolant leak in the engine.

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LostWoods

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Not a blanket statement like this. In this specific case, it is just the transmission fluid that is not part of the design process of the ZF auto, regardless of what the product says on its specs. Always best when dealing with a major component like this to stick with OEM during the warranty period. FYI, I've been using Amsoil in my track car with no issues, as with many others that do.
But that makes it an inferior product. It doesn't mean all Amsoil is bad but Amsoil ATF is absolutely an inferior product for anything not from the days of nearly universal ATF.
 

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the truck is being pushed into the service bay and authorization given to locate the internal coolant leak in the engine.
I can tell you from direct experience - that can be quite time consuming and involve stripping it way down - depending on where the issue is located.
Sometimes applying higher than normal pressures to the cooling system can force coolant into an area where it's easily seen or detected, and sometimes the "leak" relies on heat opening something up.
There were times only a magnaflux on the heads would reveal something extremely small (talking cast heads here) and sometimes is was a block issue meaning more disassembly.
Not sure what their processes are for such things under a possible warranty, but it's not always a 4 hour job.

In this specific case, it is just the transmission fluid that is not part of the design process of the ZF auto, regardless of what the product says on its specs.
We really don't know, do we?
For all we know, the temperature viscosity/cSt, CoF and all other criteria looked at for ATF could meet ZF specs. It might meet all criteria using a slightly different formulation.
I'm not saying it does or it does not - just that a product could be compatible in all areas, but not gone through the time and expense involved to display such certification.
Or it could be fine in 9 out of 10 areas and fail under certain conditions in that 10th area.
In this case, all we know is that ZF has not formally approved it.
Good product or not - while under warranty, that makes up my mind.
 

LostWoods

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The dealership told me they did not have the flush system nor the tech experience to perform this task so two pan drops was suggested.
They don't have a machine or tech because ZF does not recommend flushing the unit and dealers from Mercedes to BMW to Porche to Jeep that use the units will only recommend a drain and fill. Repeated if needed for contaminants but even two drops isn't going to give it a clean bill of health.

Trans flush machines are just a tap on a cooler line that takes fluid out of the system and puts clean fluid in at the same flow rate. The problem here being the common theme that fluids are not as cross-compatible as they once were and mixing fluids in a machine can have negatively impact the transmission. The only way a dealer would actually flush a ZF unit is if they had a dedicated transmission because they use dedicated fluid exclusive to ZF. It just doesn't make sense when they're lifetime fill in most cases.
 

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We really don't know, do we?
For all we know, the temperature viscosity/cSt, CoF and all other criteria looked at for ATF could meet ZF specs. It might meet all criteria using a slightly different formulation.
I'm not saying it does or it does not - just that a product could be compatible in all areas, but not gone through the time and expense involved to display such certification.
Or it could be fine in 9 out of 10 areas and fail under certain conditions in that 10th area.
In this case, all we know is that ZF has not formally approved it.
Good product or not - while under warranty, that makes up my mind.
The greater problem is that there's more to it than just meeting fluid test specifications. ATF is weird in that is has traditionally been a hydraulic fluid with oil-level lubricating properties but that has changed over the years to include all kinds of detergents and cleaning agents to allow for a "lifetime fill". I suspect you're on the right track that there's all kinds of weirdness with the tolerances and whatever else that make something that appears to meet the published specifications not meet other internal metrics that were also used when the units where designed.
 

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But that makes it an inferior product. It doesn't mean all Amsoil is bad but Amsoil ATF is absolutely an inferior product for anything not from the days of nearly universal ATF.
The transmission was well on its way to failure before he changed the fluid out for amsoil. I've never used their ATF and am not sure I ever will, but trying to imply that it's a bad product because it didn't save a transmission that was heading to the grave either way is a little crazy.
 

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rharr

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You guys keep talking ZF but isn't the 850RE a Chrysler product? The design started out a ZF design but the Chrysler tweaked and adjusted it to their specs?

SO please call the thing a 850RE.

With that being said it doesn't matter what ZF service docs say or state because it's not their trans.

Once Chrysler buys a design and adjusts it, then the liability for that design is wholly Chryslers and as such you need to follow Chrysler service advice to be compliant with all written liabilities Chrysler is bound to by warranty paperwork.

Talk of ZF just confuses the issue and has no bearing legally speaking.
 

LostWoods

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The transmission was well on its way to failure before he changed the fluid out for amsoil. I've never used their ATF and am not sure I ever will, but trying to imply that it's a bad product because it didn't save a transmission that was heading to the grave either way is a little crazy.
You have no way of knowing that. What we do know is that one product was specifically designed with this particular transmission in mind. The other is a compromise designed specifically to be close enough for no less than a dozen other fluids that themselves are incompatible with this transmission. That makes the Amsoil inferior in most modern transmissions.

Regardless of the outcome here, Amsoil is a company from the good ol' days running a universal fluid model. That's fine for oil and older transmissions, not fine for modern transmissions. If the transmission is marginal spec and the fluid is marginal spec, those two lines crossing ends up like OP. Maybe factory fluid would have saved it and maybe it was doomed, but we'll never know because they didn't help things when they added a product that was not correct for the transmission.
 

OngsterA

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We really don't know, do we?
For all we know, the temperature viscosity/cSt, CoF and all other criteria looked at for ATF could meet ZF specs. It might meet all criteria using a slightly different formulation.
I'm not saying it does or it does not - just that a product could be compatible in all areas, but not gone through the time and expense involved to display such certification.
Or it could be fine in 9 out of 10 areas and fail under certain conditions in that 10th area.
In this case, all we know is that ZF has not formally approved it.
Good product or not - while under warranty, that makes up my mind.
Yep, can't call it 'inferior', just not designed or approved for the ZF. Under warranty go with what's approved, period.
 

LostWoods

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You guys keep talking ZF but isn't the 850RE a Chrysler product? The design started out a ZF design but the Chrysler tweaked and adjusted it to their specs?

SO please call the thing a 850RE.

With that being said it doesn't matter what ZF service docs say or state because it's not their trans.

Once Chrysler buys a design and adjusts it, then the liability for that design is wholly Chryslers and as such you need to follow Chrysler service advice to be compliant with all written liabilities Chrysler is bound to by warranty paperwork.

Talk of ZF just confuses the issue and has no bearing legally speaking.
It's a partnership based on the 8HP ZF transmission and I know at least initially, FCA was receiving the transmissions from ZF in Germany. ZF has a say because they are the designers and to my knowledge manufacturer of the transmission and they would be doing the failure diagnoses.

Best way to see it is that they're a contractor to Jeep in this case who would rely on their expertise before making the decision.
 
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Maximus Gladius

Maximus Gladius

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The transmission was well on its way to failure before he changed the fluid out for amsoil. I've never used their ATF and am not sure I ever will, but trying to imply that it's a bad product because it didn't save a transmission that was heading to the grave either way is a little crazy.
You are correct in that the copper and iron levels were already indicating the transmission was at “death’s door”. I didn’t have the experience nor was given any sound advise to educate me that those numbers MEAN “just let it die, the end is near. “ I’ve learned a lot in these 6-7 months to know better now from what the metal numbers mean to researching deeper into data sheets to not just assume the specifications listed doesn’t mean the manufacturer agrees. It was a costly mistake for me and I told FCA, if I made a mistake in being hyper vigilant in maintenance and following the book, I’ll own it.

Where I absolutely disagree with FCA on is that they all had my oil analysis, from the President/CEO, a few top executives, right on through to the engineers that consoled with ZF and the word was “nothing was wrong with the transmission to have the need to do an analysis or flush.” Really??

Blackstone labs shows what numbers look like when a transmission is on the way out. I have two lab reports from two gladiator transmissions at 33k and 48k miles with near perfect amazing numbers. I did not have that and all that damage shown in the first 24k kms was all done untouched with factory oil.
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