Is your Gladiator pulling after a lift??

[Deleted member 51947]

I searched the forums and didn't see another post on this, so my apologies if it has already been discussed. I thought I would share some info, after fighting with a pull to the right for the past 20,000 miles after installing a lift.

After installing a lift on my JTR, it pulled to the right (would change lanes in under 10 seconds). I have had it aligned 8 times (all readings within spec). After I took it to my local Les Schwab, on Saturday, to get ready for my trip to Moab tomorrow, it still pulled. I was frustrated, and I did some more research and found that after a lift install, you need to go to the dealer to have the 'Pull Compensation' recalibrated in the Electronic Power Steering Control Module ( EPS - Clear Pull Compensation ). I attempted to do this with Alfa OBD, and got hung up at the the Longitudinal and Lateral sensor calibration (ABS Module). Because it failed to complete that calibration it went into Plant Mode, and I had to go to the dealer to have them complete the calibration. Long story, short, It no longer pulls.

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[ShadowsPapa]

I did some more research and found that after a lift install, you need to go to the dealer to have the 'Pull Compensation' recalibrated in the Electronic Power Steering Control Module

Where did that come from?

Jeep sells lifts - and they have never talked of such a thing.
Nor does any shop that does lifts on a regular basis.
So - where does that come from? Not Jeep.

There's nothing about a simple lift that changes anything - something else was going on and that resolved it.
A lift changes nothing that can cause a pull. The truck won't even know you did a lift, there's no impact on any of the angles, toe or steering wheel centering if done correctly.

You are moving things straight down - there's nothing to compensate for unless there was some other change made at the same time, tires, wheels, or maybe something was done incorrectly such as not loosening all joints with bushings, then torquing them when it's on the ground again.

 

[Deleted member 51947]

Where did that come from?

Jeep sells lifts - and they have never talked of such a thing.
Nor does any shop that does lifts on a regular basis.
So - where does that come from? Not Jeep.

There's nothing about a simple lift that changes anything - something else was going on and that resolved it.
A lift changes nothing that can cause a pull. The truck won't even know you did a lift, there's no impact on any of the angles, toe or steering wheel centering if done correctly.

You are moving things straight down - there's nothing to compensate for unless there was some other change made at the same time, tires, wheels, or maybe something was done incorrectly such as not loosening all joints with bushings, then torquing them when it's on the ground again.

The shop that did the lift didn't center the steering wheel. So the EPS was seeing the steering wheel off center from expected, and then compensated. As long as the steering wheel is plus or minus 2 degrees, it doesn't compensate. Mine was off more than that. I purchased the lift and planned to install myself, but was involved in a motorcycle accident just after it arrived. I took it to a local shop (nightmare experience), who didn't know what they were doing. Including installing the rear track bar backwards. So it may not be an issue, for most, but thought I would share.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That’s interesting. I’ve never heard that before

He had other issues - the shop messed up the lift, then to have 8 alignments done? (all they can do is look, really)
8 alignments and no one bothered to center the steering wheel. So this was a hack fix, really.
If there's no pull before, then you don't need to have anything else done. Just center the axle, center the wheel, and move on. If it pulls then it's going to be a wheel or tire issue.

The shop that did the lift didn't center the steering wheel. So the EPS was seeing the steering wheel off center from expected, and then compensated. As long as the steering wheel is plus or minus 2 degrees, it doesn't compensate. Mine was off more than that.

So instead if fixing the real problem, centering the steering wheel........ ok.
Frankly, I've had mine off more than that and it never pulled. It FELT like it was a pull, because the instinct is to center the wheel yourself, but mine was off a visible amount and never pulled.
If it had been done correctly, nothing else was needed - so that process wasn't really needed.

 

[Deleted member 51947]

He had other issues - the shop messed up the lift, then to have 8 alignments done? (all they can do is look, really)
8 alignments and no one bothered to center the steering wheel. So this was a hack fix, really.
If there's no pull before, then you don't need to have anything else done. Just center the axle, center the wheel, and move on. If it pulls then it's going to be a wheel or tire issue.




So instead if fixing the real problem, centering the steering wheel........ ok.
Frankly, I've had mine off more than that and it never pulled. It FELT like it was a pull, because the instinct is to center the wheel yourself, but mine was off a visible amount and never pulled.
If it had been done correctly, nothing else was needed - so that process wasn't really needed.

If the shop had installed the lift correctly, and ensured the steering wheel was centered, it probably wouldn't have been necessary. If I had known about the pull compensation, I would have put one and one together, and realized that the shop didn't center the steering wheel after install. However, I thought I would share, incase anyone else had a similar issue. Because the only thing that changed between the alignment check on Saturday, and today, was the recalibration of the ABS and EPS.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If I had known about the pull compensation, I would have put one and one together, and realized that the shop didn't center the steering wheel after install. However, I thought I would share, incase anyone else had a similar issue.

So in short, a lift, if done correctly and the steering wheel centered properly, this would never need to be done.
And it really masked the fact the wheel wasn't centered.
In other words, no one should ever need this - unless they have not centered the wheel, and then they should do that FIRST.

So with the steering wheel centered - will it pull again?

 

[Deleted member 51947]

So in short, a lift, if done correctly and the steering wheel centered properly, this would never need to be done.
And it really masked the fact the wheel wasn't centered.
In other words, no one should ever need this - unless they have not centered the wheel, and then they should do that FIRST.

So with the steering wheel centered - will it pull again?

Correct, correct, correct. It hasn't pulled after picking it up from the dealer, so I hope not.

 

[Deleted member 51947]

He had other issues - the shop messed up the lift, then to have 8 alignments done? (all they can do is look, really)
8 alignments and no one bothered to center the steering wheel. So this was a hack fix, really.
If there's no pull before, then you don't need to have anything else done. Just center the axle, center the wheel, and move on. If it pulls then it's going to be a wheel or tire issue.




So instead if fixing the real problem, centering the steering wheel........ ok.
Frankly, I've had mine off more than that and it never pulled. It FELT like it was a pull, because the instinct is to center the wheel yourself, but mine was off a visible amount and never pulled.
If it had been done correctly, nothing else was needed - so that process wasn't really needed.

The steering wheel was centered, when I picked it up from the shop. My guess is that they did a test drive, after they were done, and realized it was off center. Corrected it and told me it was done; however, because they test drove it with it off center, the pull compensation kicked it and that's why it was making the truck pull after the alignment had been corrected (and I use that term loosely).

 

[Jteakus]

Just pulling stares.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[JTdiRtyD]

Did your lift include adjustable track bars?

When I installed 1 inch rear spacers I had the alignment checked. It didn't pull prior to the alignment, even with the spacers, but it pulled slightly right after that. Not sure why, chalked it up to a shitty technician and dealt with it knowing I was going to install a lift soon enough and would need to realign again.

When I installed my lift and brought it in for alignment (to a different shop) the specs were all within where they needed to be, put it still pulls slightly to the right. Nothing bad, but it does. I chalked it up to AEV claiming you dont need longer trackbars...

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Did your lift include adjustable track bars?

When I installed 1 inch rear spacers I had the alignment checked. It didn't pull prior to the alignment, even with the spacers, but it pulled slightly right after that. Not sure why, chalked it up to a shitty technician and dealt with it knowing I was going to install a lift soon enough and would need to realign again.

When I installed my lift and brought it in for alignment (to a different shop) the specs were all within where they needed to be, put it still pulls slightly to the right. Nothing bad, but it does. I chalked it up to AEV claiming you dont need longer trackbars...

If it's off-center, far enough, it might pull.

This is why I say, a proper lift, properly installed, correct parts used, axle centered and steering wheel centered (which is part of an ALIGNMENT - which the shop he used had no clue about), a lift has no reason to pull.

A lift can't change camber. (I'd have had a talk with those clowns saying inserts were needed)
A lift can't change toe..
A lift may change caster - but that should be taken care of by control arms and/or brackets, depending on amount of lift.
A lift can't change caster split - nothing can other than ball joint shims but it should never be needed if the factory axle is in specs.
Try to keep the axles centered (more important with lifts over a certain point)
Always center the steering wheel after a lift - and that should be part of any alignment check.

The shop he used didn't have a clue, screwed up, and didn't know how to fix things.
No further messing with the EHPS is needed. No one should have to deal with that if there was no pull before the lift, or there was a pull not caused by tires or other factors.
He got into a really screwed up situation and he read some post somewhere and someone said "fix it this way" and should have ignored that stuff.
I asked multiple times - where did you hear this ......... and.................
Likely because it was someone on a forum who didn't know any better.
This was like saying "I fixed my DW with a new stabilizer".

You should never have to mess with any EHPS settings, lift or none, unless parts are replaced that cause it to go out of whack.

He had a really bad experience and listened to the wrong people.

 

[Stan H]

Yeah, I have pulled a trailer a camper ,a truck , and steep hills. Does well.

 

[Deleted member 51947]

If it's off-center, far enough, it might pull.

This is why I say, a proper lift, properly installed, correct parts used, axle centered and steering wheel centered (which is part of an ALIGNMENT - which the shop he used had no clue about), a lift has no reason to pull.

A lift can't change camber. (I'd have had a talk with those clowns saying inserts were needed)
A lift can't change toe..
A lift may change caster - but that should be taken care of by control arms and/or brackets, depending on amount of lift.
A lift can't change caster split - nothing can other than ball joint shims but it should never be needed if the factory axle is in specs.
Try to keep the axles centered (more important with lifts over a certain point)
Always center the steering wheel after a lift - and that should be part of any alignment check.

The shop he used didn't have a clue, screwed up, and didn't know how to fix things.
No further messing with the EHPS is needed. No one should have to deal with that if there was no pull before the lift, or there was a pull not caused by tires or other factors.
He got into a really screwed up situation and he read some post somewhere and someone said "fix it this way" and should have ignored that stuff.
I asked multiple times - where did you hear this ......... and.................
Likely because it was someone on a forum who didn't know any better.
This was like saying "I fixed my DW with a new stabilizer".

You should never have to mess with any EHPS settings, lift or none, unless parts are replaced that cause it to go out of whack.

He had a really bad experience and listened to the wrong people.

Your assumptions are incorrect. I was a mechanic in the USAF for 10 years, before an accident changed that. I taught at UTI in Sacramento for 3 years. And I've worked in fleet management for 15 years. I understand how alignments work and what does or doesn't change.

As I already stated, it shouldn't have been pulling, even when I picked it up from the shop. All measurements were within spec and the steering wheel appeared centered. They were all just at the edge of specs, again, because the shop was lazy and unprofessional.

The caster was lower than the lift manufacturer recommended, when discussed with the installation shop they suggested inserts (which are commonly used to correct/change caster).

The shop did a terrible job and I should have just waited until my leg was healed.

I don't visit forums other than this one, which is rare, because of people like you.

Lastly, I answered where I found about the pull compensation, maybe you were to busy trying to sound like you know everything and didn't read my reply.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The caster was lower than the lift manufacturer recommended, when discussed with the installation shop they suggested inserts (which are commonly used to correct/change caster).

Tossing this out as a question for the masses here - if your caster was below spec, or just say, below your goal, (say, it's sitting at 5 and you want closer to 5.5 or even 6 degrees)
What's your first choice, or the most common method to correct caster on a Jeep after a lift?

Would you use geometry correcting brackets (assume a lift over 2") or adjustable control arms
or
Leave the control arms at an angle and leave the stock arms in place and use inserts.

Yes, I'm asking, as one seems to be a lot more work, where the other leave you open to changes later, done just in your driveway?

I know all methods exist, but just to be sure I'm not missing something here - who would use ball joint inserts over brackets or control arms?

Are inserts a "common" method to change caster after a lift?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Your assumptions are incorrect. I was a mechanic in the USAF for 10 years, before an accident changed that. I taught at UTI in Sacramento for 3 years. And I've worked in fleet management for 15 years. I understand how alignments work and what does or doesn't change.

Opening this up - maybe I'll learn something -
Can anyone here tell me what about this is incorrect:

A lift can't change camber. (I'd have had a talk with those clowns saying inserts were needed)
A lift can't change toe..
A lift may change caster - but that should be taken care of by control arms and/or brackets, depending on amount of lift.
A lift can't change caster split - nothing can other than ball joint shims but it should never be needed if the factory axle is in specs.
Try to keep the axles centered (more important with lifts over a certain point)
Always center the steering wheel after a lift - and that should be part of any alignment check.

Please correct me on which of the above is incorrect...........
Can a lift on a Jeep change camber? How?
Can a lift on a Jeep change toe? How - especially if you don't change the tie rod at the same time)
How can a lift change the caster difference between sides?
Remember, this is solid front axle, not IFS where all bets are off and yes, lifting changes EVERYTHING with IFS.

He's really certain I'm wrong in the above, says my "assumptions" are incorrect - so if anyone has any info and evidence showing what changes and how a lift effects that change or causes it, Please let me know so I don't spread incorrect information.
(I also did alignments for many years)

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