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Livernois Motorsports Tune claims 50HP gains (on E85) for V6 JL Wrangler and JT Gladiator

LostWoods

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I’m sure the tune compensated for the fuel mix, but just to confirm what others are saying here is a photo.

971C3D60-EAC8-4319-A123-8BC2352A18FE.jpeg
Can't compensate for chemical composition. Rubber and aluminum degrade and corrode quickly with ethanol so most flex fuel systems use different materials. E85 in these trucks will lead to issues down the road like clogged injectors and damaged fuel pumps.

I'm with @Alabama Mud Machine on the real benefits... a few hp here and there are nice but at least on the Tacoma side, the improved throttle response and improved shift logic was a massive improvement in the real driveability. The HP gains you only enjoy when you romp it but throttle response is gold 100% of the time.



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d k

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No, E85 requires 30% more fuel to achieve the correct ratio.
Thats what Im sYing..
Gasoline is 14.7:1 to achieve stoich ratio, E85 is 11:1.
That doesnt mean the fuel mileage is 30% worse, but its very close.
Better if there is a mix of gas and E85.

Its a nice option to have flex fuel capacity, but really only necessary if youre trying to make max power, not for taking a long road trip.




Yeah I mentioned that above but it's definitely not 30% more (at least not in practice... haven't cared enough to bother to look at the science). I managed about 10-15% less MPG in my old Ranger the times I got to try E85 and there is a definite improvement in power at least on that sluggish 3.0L
 

d k

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it would be interesting to find out the specs of the components, but lately most manufacturers have been making things Ethanol safe since most fuels hav an ethanol content already in the 10% range.

I suspect the no E85 sign has more to do with the fact that the computer cant adjust for it and without tuning for it, you’d be running way too lean.




Can't compensate for chemical composition. Rubber and aluminum degrade and corrode quickly with ethanol so most flex fuel systems use different materials. E85 in these trucks will lead to issues down the road like clogged injectors and damaged fuel pumps.

I'm with @Alabama Mud Machine on the real benefits... a few hp here and there are nice but at least on the Tacoma side, the improved throttle response and improved shift logic was a massive improvement in the real driveability. The HP gains you only enjoy when you romp it but throttle response is gold 100% of the time.
 

LostWoods

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No, E85 requires 30% more fuel to achieve the correct ratio.
Thats what Im sYing..
Gasoline is 14.7:1 to achieve stoich ratio, E85 is 11:1.
That doesnt mean the fuel mileage is 30% worse, but its very close.
Better if there is a mix of gas and E85.

Its a nice option to have flex fuel capacity, but really only necessary if youre trying to make max power, not for taking a long road trip.
It's actually lower than that if I remember my classes at Ford... I know it was single digits... I want to say it's near 9.5:1? But yeah in actual practice from what I was seeing in industry (granted, this was 10-15 years ago), it was never as bad as expected with MPG. It's probably likely that efficiency increases on the gasoline side have made E85 almost entirely redundant and it's probably not the case anymore.

The problem with mixing is that no manufacturer does a tune for that so you end up with the worst of all worlds - a gasoline tune (because the computer can't detect E85) and poor mileage that comes with ethanol. E85 is really only practical when gas prices are sky high, when you live somewhere it's dirt cheap, or if you're in a fleet and can get an appropriate bulk discount to make it worthwhile.
 

LostWoods

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it would be interesting to find out the specs of the components, but lately most manufacturers have been making things Ethanol safe since most fuels hav an ethanol content already in the 10% range.

I suspect the no E85 sign has more to do with the fact that the computer cant adjust for it and without tuning for it, you’d be running way too lean.
That might be possible... I guess we'd need a Jeep engineer to say for sure but typically if you're going to make the investment to ensure all your parts are enthanol-friendly, you might as well go the full nine and do an E85 tune so you can get the emissions credit (assuming it's still a thing).
 

d k

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No some do, actually.

When you see the symbol flex fuel vehicle, that means the computer will tune based on the ratio of gas/ethanol.

for cars that dont have that from the factiry, its pretty easy to configure..
Continental makes the sensor, you splice it into the fuel return line and you get a 0-5V signal thats linear based on ethanol content.

I do it in all my race cars, but for the Jeep, I would much rather have low speed grunt over the max hp in this case.


It's actually lower than that if I remember my classes at Ford... I know it was single digits... I want to say it's near 9.5:1? But yeah in actual practice from what I was seeing in industry (granted, this was 10-15 years ago), it was never as bad as expected with MPG. It's probably likely that efficiency increases on the gasoline side have made E85 almost entirely redundant and it's probably not the case anymore.

The problem with mixing is that no manufacturer does a tune for that so you end up with the worst of all worlds - a gasoline tune (because the computer can't detect E85) and poor mileage that comes with ethanol. E85 is really only practical when gas prices are sky high, when you live somewhere it's dirt cheap, or if you're in a fleet and can get an appropriate bulk discount to make it worthwhile.
 

LostWoods

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No some do, actually.

When you see the symbol flex fuel vehicle, that means the computer will tune based on the ratio of gas/ethanol.

for cars that dont have that from the factiry, its pretty easy to configure..
Continental makes the sensor, you splice it into the fuel return line and you get a 0-5V signal thats linear based on ethanol content.

I do it in all my race cars, but for the Jeep, I would much rather have low speed grunt over the max hp in this case.
Ah see with the older Fords, they ran like shit if you didn't run them down before switching. I recall my manual said get below 1/4 tank or something before going from one to the other which made even trying E85 super impractical.
 

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I would like to clear up a common misconception about E85 or also known as 15% gas 85% Ethanol. It is common to hear that E85 is corrosive. However, It isn’t corrosive it is basically pure ethyl alcohol which is the same thing people consume when they drink. The reason is gets the corrosive moniker is actually from oxidation and that oxidation is accelerated by alcohol being hydroscopic instead of hydrophobic like petroleum is. So, the problem is more from the water that gets absorbed than by the ethanol itself. Not methanol which is a wood based alcohol is actually corrosive when stored with aluminum but we are talking about Ethanol or E85.

Now the reason ethanol makes more power are for a couple reasons. One has been mentioned in saying the stoic value is lower thereby requiring more fuel to meet the correct lambda. This more fuel equates to more BTU in the extra 25-30% required to reach the correct A/F ratio. Then one more added benefit is the evaporative properties of alcohol over gasoline and the resulting reduction to the air fuel intake temperature. This means cooler charge, bigger boom, mo powa. Then you have the higher octane value to prevent pre mature eboomulation aka detonation which enables timing to advanced further.

all in all, not trying to win anyone over to E85 A’s out Jeeps are obviously not tuned for it. But, I do run a supercharged AMC 401 on E85 and did engineer my fuel system To run it because it will dissolve standard rubber. Though I don’t believe any Modern cars fuel system would not already be ethanol compatible. It is more a matter of not tuned for the fuel or not having a large enough fuel system to keep up with the added volume required.

hope it helps understand the fuel a little better.
 

d k

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The other major reason why Ethanol can make a lot more power is that you can run a lot more timing.
 

Blade1668

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Nice to know but I'm going to stick with gas n stock, I'd rather have a warranty.
2. I'm jaded on E85 after a Dept. I was with having flex fuel cars then being forced to use E85 for 6 months. MPG average dropped off, had to refuel 2 or more times a shift from just end of shift. Then over 3/4 of vehicles had to have engines replacement in first year of service. The cars that didn't fail was operated on regular gas. Fast forward another location new flex fuel cars a "deal made" for us to refuel with different organization fuel supply (so they didn't have to use E85) we did. Same thing again, I had advised the management of past experience before. It happened again but smaller scale due to lower mileage (due to smaller patrol area) in service. Same experience again, but this time MFG "warranty service" said nope not happening.
Did I see a pattern yes, normally use 7-8 gal. of fuel on a shift with regular on E85 it's over 12 gal.
I have a log on my LJ, XJ, MJ and now my JT of every time I have refueled. How much gas and cost. Alcohol and what it's made from has better things to be used for IMHO.
 

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The big gains from ethanol use come if you up the static compression ratio appreciably and/or add forced induction into the mix. That's where its cooling properties and octane increase really shine. Not so much naturally aspirated with stock compression ratio. It ain't magic.
 

d k

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True, but you can still get a bunch from a na engine with proper tuning.

We were getting 550 out of 2liters with only 13.5lbs of boost on E85, but I totally believe Livernoise about their claim of +50hp.

The big gains from ethanol use come if you up the static compression ratio appreciably and/or add forced induction into the mix. That's where its cooling properties and octane increase really shine. Not so much naturally aspirated with stock compression ratio. It ain't magic.
 

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they dont mention anything about needing to unlock the PCM. I will assume for $500 that is not included...I sent them an email asking some questions.
Yeah, I'm curious since FCA has locked away the ECU tighter than a nun's chastity belt.
 

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They do unlock the PCM. You can also buy a new PCM from them for another $300. Then you are able swap in your OEM for dealer visits.

The 93 octane tune is a 35-40hp gain if you do not want E85. When I did a calculation between E85 and 93 in my area I would save about $200 a year.
 

d k

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is that taking into account the additional consumption on E85?

They do unlock the PCM. You can also buy a new PCM from them for another $300. Then you are able swap in your OEM for dealer visits.

The 93 octane tune is a 35-40hp gain if you do not want E85. When I did a calculation between E85 and 93 in my area I would save about $200 a year.
 

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