New 2024 grill insert experiment

[ShadowsPapa]

Has anyone just removed the entire plastic grill and see what happens?

I am over here in Arizona and it has been like 110 for the last 30-45 days... I am think about covering my house with the new grills and sitting back and enjoying the temperature difference. J/K of course.

Problem would be air could go around the radiator. The grill actually serves a purpose as air wants to follow a surface like water will (watch the commercials for the leaf guard rain gutters - air does the same thing)
So you could end up worse, less air going through, more going around.

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[ToJTornottoJT]

Problem would be air could go around the radiator. The grill actually serves a purpose as air wants to follow a surface like water will (watch the commercials for the leaf guard rain gutters - air does the same thing)
So you could end up worse, less air going through, more going around.

With all due respect.... that is what you say, but have you tried it?

 

[Hootbro]

The Wrangler forum is debating the new grill also - APPARENTLY we are ALL assholes.....according to some douchebag named Ratbert on the Wrangler forums. I see everyone HERE 95% of the time getting along and having adult conversations, agreements and disagreements, but cordial.

Fuck those a holes who think we are like foreigners for having the BEST JEEP!!!!!

Ratbert still has a active account here with like 9 posts. I think in the link below is his first post talking about tracking build changes and characteristics but referencing Wrangler stuff that did not really have direct parallels to the Gladiator.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...s-available-for-2022.58779/page-5#post-969751

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/members/ratbert.50342/

Looking at all 9 of his posts, I really cannot see where the panty twisting came from unless he was expecting to be a big thing over here and nobody lined up to sniff his farts.

Wrangler side has always had some cliques that trash talked the Gladiator from the day it was announced.

 

[JarHeadLV]

Ratbert still has a active account here with like 9 posts. I think in the link below is his first post talking about tracking build changes and characteristics but referencing Wrangler stuff that did not really have direct parallels to the Gladiator.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...s-available-for-2022.58779/page-5#post-969751

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/members/ratbert.50342/

Look at all 9 of his posts, I really cannot see where the panty twisting came from unless he was expecting to be a big thing over here and nobody lined up to sniff his farts.

Wrangler side has always had some cliques that trash talked the Gladiator from the day it was announced.

YUP, like I said- fuck those douchebags that treat us like 3rd world citizens because we have a COOLER TRUCK!!

 

[JTRDistraction]

I really cannot see where the panty twisting came from unless he was expecting to be a big thing over here and nobody lined up to sniff his farts.

That could explain why he is calling us assholes. He's probably tired of sniffing our farts. ?...?

 

[phranican]

Here gents.....save some money and get it already color matched to your truck.........IN FTW

https://www.distinctionapplied.com/2024-grille

Couldn't resist & pre-ordered in sting gray, no add-ons, $640 shipped. I officially own my 2021 jtr in two months, this may help combat the urge to trade up

 

[JarHeadLV]

Couldn't resist & pre-ordered in sting gray, no add-ons, $640 shipped. I officially own my 2021 jtr in two months, this may help combat the urge to trade up

What would make it easier for me to NOT trade up is having to take the time and money to do all the mods all over again! PLEASE show us how good it looks when you ad on the new grill

 

[Toro34]

What would make it easier for me to NOT trade up is having to take the time and money to do all the mods all over again! PLEASE show us how good it looks when you ad on the new grill

Hahaha, thats the mentality I had with my JK!

"I'll just remove and re-use the parts and accessories that I can..."

NOPE. How could I make my JT better at the expense of my JK!?! Now here I am installing a few things that I could have moved over but would have missed if I take the JK out wheeling

 

[Chrisbequick]

I was trying to find the information I based my comment on that we made the modification on my first Porsche 944 S2 track car but wasn’t able to find it.
I did find this discussion on the JL Diesel forum and thought it was interesting but no analytical data..
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/new-grill-for-better-airflow.116827/page-2

Seems like a relatively easy mod to make and easily reversible if you didn’t like it for some reason.

NASCAR teams have inducted from the cowl for decades. GM offered cowl induction on Camaros and Chevelles. Camaros had two different styles. The data is available. Common sense also says that's the case, as air cannot easily move out of that area, especially on something as boxy as a Wrangler or Gladiator.

 

[Freems]

Frankly, I can't see that you'd see any changes at all unless you actually tax that engine.
You have far more than adequate cooling ability on a drive, even on hills. It's never really "taxed" until you tow in the hills.
Your engine produces xx BTUs to accomplish a certain task.
It produces more BTUs to generate increased HP and torque for tougher tasks like towing in hills.
The cooling system is designed to keep the engine temps within normal operating perimeters while towing - it's capable of removing more BTUs of heat energy than your engine can generate unless it's really stresses. the cooling system isn't even breathing hard to keep it within those perimeters while not heavily loaded.
If the truck generates 100 while driving on hills and 150 while towing in hills, then the cooling system can remove 150+ while towing within the limits Jeep stipulates.
You'll only be generating 100 while the cooling system can remove over 150 - you won't see a difference. (numbers picked just at random for demonstration purposes only!!)
You don't even need better air flow on your daily drive - you aren't likely using even 75% of the cooling system's capacity unless you hook up a heavy trailer and hit the hills.
In other words, I can't see how you'll be doing anything as far as testing differences.

I'd bet the fan doesn't even run while on the highway without a load or on a hot day. That's the point - you have more than adequate air flow on the highway that a fan isn't needed so you save the HP of running a fan.
You'd need to see if the fan is running on a normal drive.

If you aren't using the cooling system to the max for your baseline, the changed grill won't mean a thing. You need to overheat that thing then see if the grill prevents that overheating.

Quick question: ”…so you save the HP of running a fan.” How does a 12v DC fan not running save HP? You can’t stop turning the alternator that makes that current, correct? If that’s true, then why not just interrupt that fans power circuit with a switch and suck as much air as you need for the load you’re putting on the engine through any grill design you want?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Quick question: ”…so you save the HP of running a fan.” How does a 12v DC fan not running save HP? You can’t stop turning the alternator that makes that current, correct? If that’s true, then why not just interrupt that fans power circuit with a switch and suck as much air as you need for the load you’re putting on the engine through any grill design you want?

These alternators do have a clutch.
Otherwise, if you stop sending, or reduce the current through the rotor - the field winding, you take the load off the belt.
I have a test bench I made for testing alternators I repair and restore - I can run them at light load, or full-field the rotor and almost stop the electric motor running the alternator.
The alternator is only a load if it's producing current - and at light electric load - batteries fully charged or nearly fully charged, lights off, AC off, etc. it's only producing enough to operate the basic systems and keep the voltage stable. Light load, fractional HP.
Kick that big fan on and it's drawing current, dropping system voltage, PCM regulates the current to the field coil (rotor) to keep the voltage up and the load increases on the alternator.
An alternator can actually operate with no drain on the engine other than what it takes to spin the rotor inside, or it can pull some horsepower - you can do the math as HP is also measured in watts.
For sake of simplicity and argument, say the normal system voltage on a vehicle is 13 volts (that's pretty darned close really)
If 1 HP is 745 watts, that means if the alternator is putting out 57 amps it's pulling 1 horsepower from the engine (very rough figures - I'm rounding, there are frictional losses from the belt and bearings and heat losses and so on)
So if the fan is pulling 800 watts, it's pulling over 1 hp. Turn the fan off and you save 1 horsepower of drain on the engine.
So when driving on the highway and there's adequate air flow and the heat rejection of the engine is such that it's pretty well balanced - BTUs from the engine are being discarded by the cooling system without the fan, then you save 1HP.
Mechanical fans would be pulling air through and taking that horsepower no matter what - needed or not. It's always a drain of power. It's why flex fans, thermostatic clutches and other devices were created in the late 60s and through the 80s - to save HP drain. when the fan clutch was hot the viscous fluid would force the fan to spin, when it cooled off enough, it let loose and the fan wasn't forced to spin.

Anyway, the fan is thermostatically controlled - it shuts off when not needed.
When the fan is off, the alternator output can be reduced - by the PCM cutting the field current.
It's easier on the old systems of constant voltage regulation where it was regulated at a set voltage of roughly 14 volts. When a load came on, it dropped the voltage because it was pulling current - the regulator tried to keep it at 14 volts and did so by increasing the field current to increase the output of the alternator which increased the load on the engine.
Full-field an alternator on a 1980 Chevy and listen to the engine draw down, the belt squeal and the alternator hum. Pull the field wire and the only load on the engine is what it takes to spin the rotor in the bearings - almost nothing at all.

You can measure the horsepower of a small engine using a generator and a amp meter, volt meter and carbon pile - increase the field current on the generator until you all but kill the engine - read the voltage and amperage the generator is putting out, calculate the wattage and you get the horsepower.

 

[Freems]

These alternators do have a clutch.
Otherwise, if you stop sending, or reduce the current through the rotor - the field winding, you take the load off the belt.
I have a test bench I made for testing alternators I repair and restore - I can run them at light load, or full-field the rotor and almost stop the electric motor running the alternator.
The alternator is only a load if it's producing current - and at light electric load - batteries fully charged or nearly fully charged, lights off, AC off, etc. it's only producing enough to operate the basic systems and keep the voltage stable. Light load, fractional HP.
Kick that big fan on and it's drawing current, dropping system voltage, PCM regulates the current to the field coil (rotor) to keep the voltage up and the load increases on the alternator.
An alternator can actually operate with no drain on the engine other than what it takes to spin the rotor inside, or it can pull some horsepower - you can do the math as HP is also measured in watts.
For sake of simplicity and argument, say the normal system voltage on a vehicle is 13 volts (that's pretty darned close really)
If 1 HP is 745 watts, that means if the alternator is putting out 57 amps it's pulling 1 horsepower from the engine (very rough figures - I'm rounding, there are frictional losses from the belt and bearings and heat losses and so on)
So if the fan is pulling 800 watts, it's pulling over 1 hp. Turn the fan off and you save 1 horsepower of drain on the engine.
So when driving on the highway and there's adequate air flow and the heat rejection of the engine is such that it's pretty well balanced - BTUs from the engine are being discarded by the cooling system without the fan, then you save 1HP.
Mechanical fans would be pulling air through and taking that horsepower no matter what - needed or not. It's always a drain of power. It's why flex fans, thermostatic clutches and other devices were created in the late 60s and through the 80s - to save HP drain. when the fan clutch was hot the viscous fluid would force the fan to spin, when it cooled off enough, it let loose and the fan wasn't forced to spin.

Anyway, the fan is thermostatically controlled - it shuts off when not needed.
When the fan is off, the alternator output can be reduced - by the PCM cutting the field current.
It's easier on the old systems of constant voltage regulation where it was regulated at a set voltage of roughly 14 volts. When a load came on, it dropped the voltage because it was pulling current - the regulator tried to keep it at 14 volts and did so by increasing the field current to increase the output of the alternator which increased the load on the engine.
Full-field an alternator on a 1980 Chevy and listen to the engine draw down, the belt squeal and the alternator hum. Pull the field wire and the only load on the engine is what it takes to spin the rotor in the bearings - almost nothing at all.

You can measure the horsepower of a small engine using a generator and a amp meter, volt meter and carbon pile - increase the field current on the generator until you all but kill the engine - read the voltage and amperage the generator is putting out, calculate the wattage and you get the horsepower.

SP, Thanks for this explanation, I retract my stupid post of sucking what you need though the system. OP, go get them with your testing and more data points, to help educate this old coot with my 80’s knowledge base.

 

[azaustin]

I ordered the

I changed the parameters of the experiment a bit.

While driving and thinking this whole thing through I wanted to eliminate the chance for a variable load on the engine during the trans warm up portion of the drive. In my mind gathering data when the trans is at operating temp ensures the engine isnt maintaining higher RPMS while using cruise control or anything unforeseen while I rely on the computer to maintain my speed. No idea if there is any validity to this thought process, but it made sense to me.

I also added a section on how I am going to gather the data using check points and an example key of how I will be listing the data.

Additionally, I put my JT next to my wife's JLU and noticed an immediate difference between the grills. The JT grill on my max tow has "black out" (my description..no idea what theyre called) panels on both outer most slots. These black out panels have a small cut out in them that looks like it directs the air flow. Specifically on the passenger side the cut out directs air into the engine air intake vent. My wifes JLU doesnt have the same panels.

Not sure if this is just part of the "max tow" package or not. Ill take some pictures later today so anyone interested can see what I am talking about. Id appreciate it if some one with a rubi / sport / mojave could take a similar snap of your OEM grills just for comparison. Im curious if there is a difference.

I also added the additives I use with links to each.

new grill inserts to do a bit of a test since there is so much back and forth. Nearly all of which is absent of date.

Much like my past MPG experiment I have the same drive to and from work every day. It has mostly flat terrain with a bridge that will "tax" the engine a little (emphasize on the little)

I will update the main post with the new data as I go is its easier to see it all in once place.

Question:
+ Will the "new" plastic grill inserts make a difference with the 2020 JT grill? Positive OR Negative

Research:
-Random opinions that the inserts will/will not make a difference.

- https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Jeep-Wrangler-Hood-Vent-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

-The last page of the above link is most interesting to me in that it specifically says "Lack of ducting or panels between the grill and front of the radiator allows air to bypass the radiator reducing cooling. Front ducting and hood extraction behind the radiator are key to maximizing cooling"
-A quick search into "automotive ducting" and I find a good bit of info regarding creating wind movement through the radiator, nut just at it. In the video below they talk about the dead space created by certain ducting setups and how it can change the airflow.



Most of the reading Ive done points to the need for a positive pressure space in front of the radiator that moves air through the radiator, and not around it. Since air moves similar to water in that it follows the path of least resistance, the grill needs to be set up to push it ito the radiator. This is created with the current JT grill set up with the foam pieces and spacers that isolate the space between the grill and the radiator its self. If it were just a matter of unregulated air flow the jeep would come without a grill entirely. Which leads me back to part of the original question, will the newer plastic grill inserts effect the JTs ability to cool?
I would like to be able to measure the airflow behind the radiator to be able to gather that as a baseline data point. But that seems to be either cost prohibitive or a metric I wont be able to gather by a reliable means.

Hypothesis:
+The inserts will make a small improvement in oil / coolant / trans temps.
+The cost / benefit will not "pan out" to be significant, if even measurable.

Experiment:
-I well drive to and from the same place during my regular work week. I will also gather data points while pulling my 6,000lbs travel trailer during the experiment to help prove or disprove any data I get.
-I will gather data from three temperatures
--Oil temp
--Trans temp
--coolant temp

-I will only gather data after the trans comes up to operating temp (185-190)
-I will record data at 3 "check points" along the route.
--The intent would be to show a more complete picture by capturing data early in the ride, in the middle, and at the end. Ultimately I intend to average the data points, but the middle CP will be a bridge and will represent the data points while "under load".

Ill try to organize the data as best as possible.
Example:
Day 1 Trip 1
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

Day 1 Trip 2
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

control variable:
+fixed distance to and from work
+consistent RPM range (cruise control)
+no vehicle changes until experiment is over

Variables:
+Wind
-If wind is coming primarily from the north or south the days data will not be counted

+ambient temperature
-Data will be counted within the ranges of 75-85 F and 85-95f. Ill separate the data points to try and isolate high temperatures as an uncontrolled variable.

+Driving habits
-I will be using cruise control for the entire travel distance, barring unforeseen need to slow down

+road type
-I will only record data on the highway portion of my trip to try and keep this variable consistent.

+engine load
-I will record my data at two points in my travel. One during a largely flat drive, and the other at the precipice of the tallest bridge.
-I will not carrying any more than usual. If im hauling more than an additional 100lbs, that days data will not be counted.

Any anecdotal findings will be recorded as AF# and will likely be added as a finding to track. I dont exactly anticipate any significant anecdotal findings, but things like MPG are always on my mind. So I may keep an eye on that to see if there is any fluctuation I cant explain away.

Im NOT a scientist and...im sure....i probably botched some of the basic writeup. So feel free to nitpick me friends.


*+*+*My setup for those wondering*+*+*
Iron rock off road 2in spacer lift with
Core 4x4 track bars
AEV steering stabilizer
MPP front and rear sway bar ends
MPP front LCAs
Front geometry correction brackets
Rear Drive shaft drop block(can’t remember brand)
Rear bump stop extensions (axle side)
Sumo springs bump stops all around
Rear track bar bracket
Air lift bags
255/75/17 Firestone Destination AT2
Jeep JLUR 17in rims
water wetter coolant additive
FuelOx Fuel additive with every tank
FuelOx Infinity Lube engine oil additive with every oil change

TEST:

Day 1 Trip 1
CP1--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP2--OT ### CT ### TT ###
CP3--OT ### CT ### TT ###

Have you considered using a manometer setup to evaluate the pressure differential. This is often done in aircraft (specifically experimental or homebuilt aircraft) to make sure that the altimeter will function properly. You can build your own using plastic tubing and water. Google altimeters and manometers and you will probably get a lot of information. If that fails, try the Experitmental Aricraft Association website or Kitplanes magazine.

 

[Terminus33]

I thought the only way a manometer would be accurate is if you could seal off both areas you are testing?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I thought the only way a manometer would be accurate is if you could seal off both areas you are testing?

I like the concept of actual measurements - but where are you going to measure and what are you going to compare.
To be accurate, your "testing" would need to be done at the exact same speed in the exact same direction with the exact same wind speed and direction. With winds being variable in direction and speed (at least around here) it would be difficult. An hour between tests can make a big difference due to winds, air pressure changes, air temperature changes and so on. So you'd need to be fast
You'd need to monitor the fan - is the fan on or off?
What is the goal - what's being monitored?

You would need to be measuring the pressure at the front of the radiator as the differences in pressure between the front and the back should be constant - that's a function of the resistance to air flowing through the radiator. The radiator should drop a certain amount of pressure regardless of air flow.
Air flow - such as measured in the engine air intake, would seem to make the most sense to measure, the more I think about it.
Between the radiator and fan there should be low pressure. Behind the fan should be higher pressure.
Maybe measure between fan and radiator to see if that pressure is increased by increased air forced through the radiator, which would require increased pressure ahead of the radiator.

Just tossing things out, thinking aloud while eating and getting ready to go get gas and spend the rest of the afternoon mowing........

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