Not impressed with Gladiator performance in snow

[CreepyJeepy]

The only thing I could find on weight distribution. 53%/47% front to rear.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/weight-distribution-percentage-not-the-hitch.53870/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/curb-weight-and-balance-on-scales.43723/

Today I learned…

I always felt like the Gladiator was a bit better balanced than my older Taco.

I actually prefer lighter weight in the tail, it’s easier / more fun to correct oversteer.

50/50 split vehicles are pretty uncommon, but they are awesome to drive.

Sponsored

 

[redriderjf87]

Here in central SC we rarely get snow and when we do, people go frigging nuts. People in empty bed pickup trucks do especially poor in snow here as there’s no weight on the rear tires so we see a lot of spinouts and loss of traction. Those that have experienced snow tend to put heavy junk over the rear tires so they can gain traction. My two cents.

Just moved from IA to eastern GA. Excited and curious to see winter here, like you said I've heard all the stories about how people freak out at the first drop of a flurry.
I'm more concerned about ice down here from what I've heard though.

The other thing though (not addressed to a specific person). There isn't something special about putting weight directly above your rear axle for traction. Just put it as far back as you safely can secure it. It's about getting your center of gravity moved back.

 

[Capngeo]

Snow? What is this word “snow” ?

(Sorry, live in Florida and couldn’t help myself)

 

[OffAxis2021]

That's interesting to hear - my coworker has Kendra's and has never said anything bad about them at all.

Disclaimer: I am sure you already know the one immediate following paragraph, but I’m going to think out loud my too much coffee already thought anyhow.
?‍?

There is nothing literally wrong with the Kendas, but an R/T (hybrid) tire with less siping than an A/T (all terrain) tire will absolutely have less traction in said conditions of on-road snow/rain covered roads. Yes, tire compound matters too. Overall tire make-up also.
Pictured right next to an unmounted Mickey Thompson Baja Boss A/T.

I myself just prefer an A/T tire and the narrower the better. I have no need for a hybrid really and will never own a mud terrain. I do not “go muddin.” Nothing but sandy trails for me and only occasionally (unfortunately). Silver Lake Sand Dunes (west Michigan) too, because “Mojave.” ?

Function over fashion.

Like any and everything else… everyone likes something different and feel differently about how “X” performs.

Random outburst: I have no opinion/input on the Select-Trac and the like. My previous two Toyotas did not have an “auto 4H” feature and having it on previous to them General Motors vehicles, I missed the F out of the option. I had to have it again when ordering the Mojave.

 

[Bear Hunter]

I'v owned quite a number of vehicles, including some nice 4 wheel drive trucks. I have never had any one of them come near the capability of my Gladiator in snow. Just my experience but I would not be afraid to go almost anywhere with mine...

 

[troverman]

...I always thought the Auto systems picked which wheel to send power to. If it saw a particular wheel slipping, it sent power to a different combination?

The "auto" system can only vary the amount of power sent to either the front or rear axle. It has no ability to vary the amount of power to wheels across an axle; that function would be controlled by the electronic traction control system, which all Gladiators have. Traction control works on the rear wheels at all times, and becomes available on the front wheels once 4x4 (or 4A) is engaged.

We all realize that the difference between 4HI and 4HI Auto is that the T-Case has a motor to disengage and engage the front driveshaft upon detected slip in Auto compared to always supplying torque to the front driveshaft, right? That's the 1 and only difference. It's still a basic T-Case and always is 50/50 (all 4 wheel drive settings, besides 4HI Auto when computer commanded to engage front driveshaft) or 0/100 (2H power distribution, or 4HI Auto when not computer commanded to engage front driveshaft)

I see Papa already corrected you, but suffice it to say I find it interesting how you posted totally incorrect info shortly after insulting me a few posts higher. Hey, we all get things wrong and the point of a forum like this is to learn from a group of like-minded enthusiasts. All the best to you.

Are you comparing the regular Command-Trac t-case with the Selec-Trac t-case? If so, what you have stated is not correct.

Selec-Trac in 4H AUTO uses a variable clutch system to vary the amount of power sent to the front based on a lot of factors including detected slip. It is not a simple engage/disengage system driven by a motor. In 4HI AUTO, the clutch system allows the front & rear driveshafts to turn at different speeds, acting like a center differential. Selec-Trac in 4H Part-Time uses the variable clutch system, but at 100% clutch engagement to force the front & rear driveshafts to turn at the same speed all the time.

Command-Trac in 4H Part-Time mechanically locks the front & rear driveshafts together, there is no clutch system.

You got it, that's how it works. Not aimed at you, but many people call this "full-time 4x4" and it really isn't. Full time or permanent will use a real, mechanical center differential typically located in the transfer case. It's advantage is greater strength and zero electronics needed. The downsides are added weight, cost, and the fact that without a method of controlling slip between the front and rear axles, it could literally send 100% of a vehicle's available torque to just one wheel. Some AWD cars (Mercedes 4-Matic for example) use this type of transfer case and then rely on 4-wheel electronic traction control to do the rest. Land Rover Discovery II for a few years also used this system, albeit with a very good traction control system.

As far as the rear-end... of course, its a no brainer... they are considerably lighter in the rear. I know what the door sticker says, but you would also run a considerable lower psi in the rear vs the front tire.... not sure how many miles are on the Gladiator tires, but they can be slippery until well broken in. But bottom line, I think select-a-trac would have made a huge difference.

My tires have over 4,000 miles on them now. I could try a lower PSI, that's fair. However, Select-Trac on snow covered roads would not have made this vehicle any better. I would actually suspect the owner's manual would suggest using the locked "4H" mode in totally snowy conditions vs the Auto setting.

A properly driven Rubicon Gladiator with Falken Wildpeak AT3W tires at about 30PSI is AMAZING in the snow and ice.

Why would a "Rubicon" Gladiator with these tires be any better on snow covered roads then any other type of Gladiator with the same tires? You certainly aren't locking your differentials while driving down the road...

-------------------------

I think some people mistakenly believe these Jeeps have a superior 4WD system, but they don't. As someone alluded to, actually the "Auto" mode transfer case is weaker then the Command-Trac unit. The reason is because the Command Trac case mechanically locks the front and rear axles together when 4H or 4L is engaged. The Select-Trac case simply engages the clutch to 100% when 4H or 4L is engaged. And while that will be fine 99% of the time, someone putting really big tires on and seriously wheeling their vehicle...or plowing snow with it...or possibly even towing a heavy trailer for years with this transfer case...could burn out the clutches. Or the system could overheat and shut down, leaving the driver with a 2WD Jeep. There are plenty of videos and posts about the RAM 1500 transfer case with 4A mode (which works the same as the Jeep) overheating after extended off-road use and leaving the truck with only 2wd.

Last note - the 2017+ Ford Raptor has a very unique transfer case. It has a 4A mode plus 4H and 4L. In 4A mode, it uses clutches just like the Jeeps and everything else. However, in 4H and 4L mode, it has a mechanical collar that locks the front output shaft to the rear via the chain. Additionally, if you are in 4A mode and the clutch is being used repeatedly...the transfer case will actually automatically switch to 4H true locked mode to prevent clutch overheating or damage. The Raptor's larger tires and higher power output required this transfer case. The RAM TRX is an even more powerful truck. RAM does not offer a 2WD mode on this vehicle, and does use a unique Borg-Warner t-case which is quite beefed up...but it is a clutch based system and unfortunately, overheating has occurred and 2WD will solely be available, even though there is no way to select 2WD except when the clutches overheat.

 

[troverman]

I'v owned quite a number of vehicles, including some nice 4 wheel drive trucks. I have never had any one of them come near the capability of my Gladiator in snow. Just my experience but I would not be afraid to go almost anywhere with mine...

Keep in mind my concern was driving on snow covered roads. Your pictures show a Gladiator with mud-terrain tires in deep snow. M/T's work well in deep snow but not well on packed snow covered roads. Nice rig, by the way.

 

[DaveL]

Our 2019 JLU had basic 4WD. Highway use was a pain. Shift into 4Hi when you're in snow or on ice. Shift out when the road clears...
Had Blizzaks on. The truck ones. Tread would fill with snow. Every trip wished I had the optional 4 wd.

Our 2022 JLUR has Rock trac or whatever it is, and many other options. It has K02.s Trips with intermittent snow/ice it's in 4 Auto. Considered buying snowtires; decided against it. Last year the K02's were good enough.

Past experience? (35 years as ski instructor; 6 days a week) Good snow tires are a real blessing. More important for highway driving than 4WD. The vehicle I had before the JLUR was a '19 Subaru Forester running Michelin X-Ice snow tires. It was magnificent on highways covered with intermittent snow and ice. Why change? It's a Jeep Thing.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Full time or permanent will use a real, mechanical center differential typically located in the transfer case. It's advantage is greater strength and zero electronics needed. The downsides are added weight, cost, and the fact that without a method of controlling slip between the front and rear axles, it could literally send 100% of a vehicle's available torque to just one wheel.

Yeah, when that coupling in the NP 129 blows out, you have an open differential in the transfer case and it's only marginally better than a 2 wheel drive in some conditions.
The 129 in my current SX4 blew the viscous coupling - you could smell it when the fluid came out when I was doing a fluid change.
I realized by the smell and the burned brown look of the fluid it was time for a different transfer case. I could also tell because it literally had trouble getting up my icy/snow packed driveway the winter before I changed the fluid. That explained the problem right there.
These were the transfer cases used back then -
NP 119 - '80 thru early '81 -- Full Time 4 Wheel Drive; Viscous Coupling
NP 128 - 1986 only; Open Differential
NP 129 - mid '81 thru '88 -- Select Drive Models; Viscous Coupling
New transfer case and it was pretty much unstoppable.

I've driven a multitude of vehicles - IH, Jeep, Ford, Chevy, and frankly, other than the Eagle, my Chevy had the best "automatic" transfer case. The Ford would bind up really badly if you hit so much as a few yards of bare concrete, it was a pain unless your roads were fully covered. It would go like crazy in deep stuff, though.
I left my Chevy in automatic mode all the time.

I have an article - very dated, yes, from 1969, but I think it was Popular Science that did some testing of cars with LSD and their test vehicles were totally identical in every way except the tires - one of the cars had 1,000 miles on the tires. What they found was that the tires with no miles actually did better in their testing than the tires with 1,000 miles on them.
Granted, tire technology is lightyears ahead of those days, but it does show that miles on the tires can matter, and I've found that as well. Years ago my parents and I literally did put snow tires on our cars for the winter - and once they got some age and wear, they were only marginally better than other tires, IMO. The problem here is that snow is iffy, and it comes and goes so you are driving snow tires on rough concrete for part of the winter and wear them down pretty darned fast. For those who have more snow on the ground more days than we typically do (and that has actually changed over the years - our days of snow covered roads are fewer - in part due to natural changes and in part to the wimps who sue anyone involved with road maintenance if their roads aren't cleared down to clear dry pavement within hours of a snow storm.)
Man, those people who live in town you should see the nasty posts and comments about their city or DOT after a snow. I've lived where it might be days before your road was cleared enough to get through. These people gripe "they haven't cleared my street and it's been 2 hours wah wah"

 

[Sweetums]

Sometimes I wonder how I ever made it to 60

My dad driving us around in brutal upstate NY winters, and when it got bad us kids jumped out and locked in the hubs. My dad was smart! Have a healthy 10-year-old get out in the snow while he stays nice and warm inside. As a treat, I got to shift. He would press in the clutch, and I had it down to a tee, and he worked the gas and clutch, and I worked the floor shifter!

I can't imagine my Jeep is worse than those in the snow? No traction control computers back then. Just lock em in and go!

I look forward to seeing the difference between my Jeep in the snow and my Sierra with the Auto 4WD.


I always thought the Auto systems picked which wheel to send power to. If it saw a particular wheel slipping, it sent power to a different combination?

I'm thinking of all those years I drove a RWD open diff manual transmission and the only thing electronic was the radio.

I still put on snow tires and drove up the mountain every weekend to go skiing.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Not even possible. You are saying the empty bed and frame and rear axle weigh as much as an engine and transmission and front axle with FAD, knuckles, and jointed axle shafts?

It is though. It’s the reason they didn’t make a 2 door version, from what I’ve read. It would have drastically thrown off the weight distribution in the design.

 

[smlobx]

ya its possible look it up. its better than a bmw.

not even close…

Curb Weight - Front (lbs)2486

Curb Weight - Rear (lbs)2205

https://www.thecarconnection.com/specifications/jeep_gladiator_2020


and by the way the best weight distribution for a performance car is more like 45/55%. A slight rear weight bias will handle and brake better (Former Porsche Racing Instructor) ?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If my measuring is correct, the wheelbase centerline is something like where I drew the red line.
For it to be 50/50, everything ahead of that line would need to weigh the same, not more than, everything behind that line.
Engine, transmission, transfer case - I'll have to look to see just where the rear of that assembly sits compared to the red line.
You have the weight of the windshield assembly (frame and glass), figure in roll cage, front axle assembly will be a lot heavier than the rear axle assembly.

One thing the Gladiator has going for it over more conventional pickups is the front axle is clear out front leaving much engine weight to the rear of the front axle, and the rear axle is quite forward in the bed, leaving bed hanging out behind the rear axle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

When I have my snow plow on, the rear of my JT comes up so badly - yes, I gain height in the rear, and also have trouble driving up the gravel driveway behind my garage to get it around front when I hook up the plow. I have to put weight in the back or use 4 wheel drive or I'll just spin the rear tires on the loose ground.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It is though. It’s the reason they didn’t make a 2 door version, from what I’ve read. It would have drastically thrown off the weight distribution in the design.

2 door versions wouldn't sell well enough.
Shortening it would have actually been an advantage in weigh distribution, not a negative.
The front weighs some 300 pounds more than the rear - shortening it would have made it more even and better balanced. The problem is that where pickups are bought and sold as pickups, no one is buying 2 door models like they used to. I have to look hard to see many around here.

Think mid-engine cars as far as balance for performance.

Sponsored