Trying to gather info to find commonality on "misfires"

[Maximus Gladius]

Hi, Maximus Gladius, I am reading this.

We recommend contacting the team in your region for assistance with your concerns. The Jeep Canada Team can be reached by phone at 1-800-465-2001.

Kate
Jeep Cares

Thank you Kate. The number you provided is FCA Corporate line whom I have two case numbers already and have explained what’s happing with 3 agents. After hearing me, I get a lot of apologies and their explanation that they don’t have the power to “make dealerships do anything”. They have to leave it with the service personnel to decide best course of action for my repairs.

The best course of action are from the ones ignoring my lab results and say coolant in the engine oil is normal and disregarding my results. These are the ones I’ve been trying to explain my internal coolant leak and how to diagnose it (without lab results) but have chosen instead a repair course of action that’s been done for everyone else, except in those cases, no one looked to see if they had coolant leaks but that doesn’t matter because it’s normal to see that stuff in the oil.

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[ShadowsPapa]

They need to see some of what I can easily look up - instead of me pulling from what I know and trying to get it all down, I'll not re-invent the wheel, I'll copy and paste what others have put together -


As a result, coolant leaks into the crankcase oil. (Antifreeze in Oil )
Acids and precipitants form as the glycol coolant additives and lubricant additives react.
Hence, these insolubles begin to plug the oil filter.
Concurrently, the acids and water disrupt soot dispersancy causing a dumping condition.
More sludge and insolubles form.
By now the filter is plugged with the glycol transformation by-products.
The oil and filter are changed.
Typically around 15 percent of the old oil remains, either in the oil pan or on engine surfaces.
The new oil (with detergents and dispersants) mobilizes the soot and the sludge, carrying it to the filter.
Once again, the filter becomes clogged (even with the coolant leak fixed).

Organic acids will form and can jeopardize bearings and other frictional surfaces.

These bearings should be a nice silvery color -

Because glycol breaks down at temperatures over 200 degrees and because engine oil is routinely subjected to those temperatures for extended periods, the actual glycol in the oil may be difficult if not impossible to detect. This suggests that any glycol that is normally in oil when fresh would be broken down and not detected hours later. This further suggests that any glycol found is not what's in the oil when fresh, but is being continuously introduced into the oil during driving. What needs to be tested for is the components that result from the glycol being present and broken down - sodium, silicon, potassium and so on. Those indicate that even if the glycol has broken down and isn't detectible at that point, the side effects of it having been there are proof that it was there.

Any tech that argues otherwise has only searched google and looked at the highlights of the results which suggest glycol is used in pipelines to transport oil - by the time that oil is processed and used in an engine, it should be present in amounts all but impossible to trace and there should be little to no sodium, potassium or silicon found.

 

[stew7710]

That's OBDLink - it's the free app to use with their bluetooth OBDII device. I have it but have not used it because it wasn't capable of doing what I've been doing. It MAY log errors, I don't know.
I use AlfaOBD - it's what the Ram truck people rave about.

https://www.alfaobd.com/

https://www.alfaobd.com/download.html

I don't believe there's an Apple version. I don't have any Apple devices except an older iPod.

Downloaded to a Windows laptop and it connects to the bluetooth OBDLink M+. Pop-up says my 2021 is not supported and to send them the ISO. I was hoping DEMO mode would show something but I may need to purchase a license for all the features to work.

Maybe this is a sign I should have just went with a diesel. LOL!

 

[CallMeJoe]

Not sure if this applies here as the thread seems to be about coolant issues. I had a long-running code for misfire. I believe it was P0300. The code showed up at a couple hundred miles and was there for nearly a year. Took it back multiple times. Last month the dealer had it for a week and replaced the 2,4,6 cam. Seems to have solved the issue. Code is gone and has not returned. I just returned yesterday from a 4,000 mile trip to AZ and back (to Wi) and had no issues other than a recurring esc light caused by holding the steering wheel into the standard Kansas quartering wind of death. Once I got back to non-Dorothy & Toto weather patterns the light went back off.
To the best of my knowledge, I've not had any coolant added.
My truck:
2020 Gladiator JTR
Auto
Build date: Dec 19
15k miles

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not sure if this applies here as the thread seems to be about coolant issues. I had a long-running code for misfire. I believe it was P0300. The code showed up at a couple hundred miles and was there for nearly a year. Took it back multiple times. Last month the dealer had it for a week and replaced the 2,4,6 cam. Seems to have solved the issue. Code is gone and has not returned. I just returned yesterday from a 4,000 mile trip to AZ and back (to Wi) and had no issues other than a recurring esc light caused by holding the steering wheel into the standard Kansas quartering wind of death. Once I got back to non-Dorothy & Toto weather patterns the light went back off.
To the best of my knowledge, I've not had any coolant added.
My truck:
2020 Gladiator JTR
Auto
Build date: Dec 19
15k miles

It's actually mostly about misfire - but I'm trying to see if there's any connection with at least SOME of the misfires and possible coolant loss.
There's likely at least 3 or 4 different causes of the misfires - like I always do when a symptom can have multiple root causes - try to nail down one at a time, and finally you have one left to deal with. It's how I've always approached things if I'm thinking clearly.

Love your description of the winds - HAHA - we drove to CO through NE then KS and I made a comment about the truck and passing semi trucks and then I asked her if the truck was pulling and she said no, she was fighting the wind. That steering wheel was easily 3 or so degrees to the left but we were going straight - or she was trying to. And as KS would have it on the way back the wind came from the other direction and it was blowing us to the right again. .
I just told her, it's Kansas, the wind always comes out of the left.

 

[CallMeJoe]

I think that after many trips across Ks, Ne, SD, Ok I can confirm that 100% of the time, the wind of Satan will be a headwind, no matter which way you are headed. Some day, I'm going to do a u-turn to confirm, but I'll bet its going to be headwind in both directions.....​

 

[Hamandcamo]

Mine was doing the same thing before it died. During acceleration there was a flat spot, like it wasn't getting any fuel. Once it got past a certain RPM it picked back up and took off. My engine was very noisy, had a knock on startup, and I also had a detonation problem that could be heard all of the time..Marbles in the motor.

Unfortunately, I might be another data point.
Build Date: 2/14/21
Manny Tranny

I have the exact same issue with mine. In my manual, it is usually under load in 3rd gear going uphill. Surge/Loss of power in the 2300-2700 rpm range. Rough idle on a cold startup. What sounds like marbles in the crankshaft area(more pronounced on the driverside). No codes. This started day two of ownership. It is not consistent, but when humid and hot ive noticed it happen more. The funny thing is, once I finished my breakin period and started to get on it periodically, it has not happened at all. Only in that gear under those conditions. Ive read from Mr. KenP that this could be related to the tune, which im hoping thats the case.

 

[stew7710]

Spoke with dealer a second time. No codes stored and service manager said if there was a code captured it wouldn’t be erased.

have had some noticeable stumbles pulling out in traffic, the kind that make you say, “oh sh*t, let’s go!” 2,000 - 4,000 RPMs seems to be the range. Varied conditions and gears is making it difficult to replicate.

I am keeping an eye on the coolant level. Appears to be stable.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Spoke with dealer a second time. No codes stored and service manager said if there was a code captured it wouldn’t be erased.

have had some noticeable stumbles pulling out in traffic, the kind that make you say, “oh sh*t, let’s go!” 2,000 - 4,000 RPMs seems to be the range. Varied conditions and gears is making it difficult to replicate.

I am keeping an eye on the coolant level. Appears to be stable.

Top the coolant up to the MAX line when engine is cold. It looks like it’s sitting at or below the MIN line

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I leave it at minimum or a bit over when cold, not over maximum when hot.
If it's sitting in the middle or the minimum line, I leave it.
I want room for expansion.

From the book -

The coolant bottle provides a quick visual method for determining that the coolant level is adequate. With the engine in
the OFF mode and cold, the level of the engine coolant (antifreeze) in the bottle should be between the ranges indicated
on the bottle.

 

[JTBurns]

My coolant is below the minimum, but I don't have the software to tell me about misfires. All I'd say is that the truck seems to operate fine for me, no rough idles, temps seem within the appropriate range when operating, and what not. I'm at 17k miles and 15 months of ownership and am going to add some coolant for the first time to bring it up between min and max. For anyone looking to add coolant, this appears to be the right product, already mixed:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017DP43ZC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_XVDVMQGWC5HDG3MDDPET

I'm going to keep an eye on it, and mention having to add it at my next service. Anything specific to look at on the seal of the cap or how to clean it when I take it off? I read if it isn't tight or possibly contaminated it could lead to evaporation of the coolant

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Wipe the sealing areas with a clean cloth, leave no lint or threads behind. Sometimes I just wipe the sealing areas with a clean finger - that way I can feel if there's any grit that might get embedded in anything. Not anything really scary or life critical -as long as the seal and sealing surface are clean and there's not dirt or grit.

That link looks like the right stuff - 10 year/150,000 mile OAT coolant.

 

[Hootbro]

Had not seen this thread until now but will post here as it seems a more appropriate thread to list and update to on my misfire issue. Original link to discussion is below.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/3-6l-pentastar-problems.17567/page-2#post-763187

I should also note that my coolant level when I added the mentioned 8oz of coolant was the same as @stew7710 showed in his post.

.......................I have had an intermittent once in a blue moon “Start/Stop System Disabled” indication and icon show up on the instrument cluster. Discounted it as a low ESS battery issue and never deep dived it for the longest time because it would go away on next restart. Never had a CIL indication either and never really noticed any performance issues or misfire when driving.

About 2-3 months ago, this “Start/Stop System Disabled” indication would become a now once a week affair. Using JScan as a rudimentary scan tool, I would do an initial scan and there was a pending but never posting P0304 #4 cylinder misfire code. I would then do a PID scan of all 6 cylinders and the #4 cylinder would have a misfire count of 25-65 misfires with the other cylinders either zero or single digits.

The #4 cylinder misfires would only happen on a cold like sitting for 8 hours or more start and would almost never count any higher for my 45 minute commute. For a few week, I would hook up JScan and monitor my misfire count on a cold start and found the #4 cylinder always has a double digit misfire count compared to the other cylinders regardless. “Start/Stop System Disabled” indication only seems to come on when the misfire count gets about 40 count with anything less not setting it.

I know not getting a proper check engine light (CIL) with the P0304 code posting and only a intermittent pending that clears after a couple of restarts, dealing with the dealership service was going to be a donkey show like you are going through. That leads me down the path of usual suspects and getting coolant concerns figured out and hopefully out of the way. If my oil analysis shows nothing to be concerned in regards to coolant, I am coming up on the 30K mile mark here soon and have already bought new spark plugs, intake gaskets and fuel injector o-rings and plan to replace the spark plugs and move both #4 cylinder fuel injector and ignition coil to two different cylinder and see what if anything travels. If nothing travels and seems fixed, call it with the spark plugs. If the moved ignition coil or fuel injector had a misfire on the traveled two cylinder, then call either item to be replaced. If after all that, my issue remains on #4 cylinder, then I am looking at head or valvetrain issues and that will be a dealer visit for warranty and playing that donkey show with them.

As of this writing, still waiting on my oil analysis return from Blackstone which I expect sometime next week.

Only change is this week, I did get another ESS disable message and instead of the P0304 pending I had previously, i had the generic P0300 multiple cylinder misfire but JScan data still showed the majority misfire count on #4 cylinder.

I have attached my original baseline oil analysis for reference I did when the vehicle was at the first oil change around 5K miles and nothing was flagged for the potassium and sodium levels being above expected values. Current analysis I am waiting on from Blackstone was pulled at 28K miles.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Had not seen this thread until now but will post here as it seems a more appropriate thread to list and update to on my misfire issue. Original link to discussion is below.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/3-6l-pentastar-problems.17567/page-2#post-763187

I should also note that my coolant level when I added the mentioned 8oz of coolant was the same as @stew7710 showed in his post.



As of this writing, still waiting on my oil analysis return from Blackstone which I expect sometime next week.

Only change is this week, I did get another ESS disable message and instead of the P0304 pending I had previously, i had the generic P0300 multiple cylinder misfire but JScan data still showed the majority misfire count on #4 cylinder.

I have attached my original baseline oil analysis for reference I did when the vehicle was at the first oil change around 5K miles and nothing was flagged for the potassium and sodium levels being above expected values. Current analysis I am waiting on from Blackstone was pulled at 28K miles.

Interesting seeing a Blackstone sample. On the far right, the column is titled “National Averages” and gives base numbers. These to me are general numbers that for the most part are acceptable?? So they don’t want a sample of the fresh oil you are using and start with those base numbers?

For example, my lab wanted and was supplied a fresh uncontaminated sample of Amsoil to start with those hard base numbers to go off of. The starting point of SODIUM in fresh Amsoil is “1” ppm. So when they saw my first oil change sample @1000kms, the SODIUM level was 11 ppm. The second oil change sample @10k SODIUM was 9 ppm and the 3rd early taken sample SODIUM spiked to 16 ppm. I would guess if I do a regular oil change sample at another 4000kms, the 16ppm would look more like 20-23ppm SODIUM from a clean base number of 1 ppm, shows a big problem is coming. But if I was looking at my numbers doing there thing, and cross checking it with the acceptable NATIONAL AVERAGE, I wouldn’t be alarmed.

You need the base numbers from the oil you’re using to cross check, no??

EDIT- additional info:
My lab highlighted the SODIUM columns in all 3 samples but ALERTED to coolant leak in the last 2 results. To back up their suspicion that I had an internal leak they also ran a separate GLYTEC test to be absolutely certain coolant was in the oil.

 

[Hootbro]

Interesting seeing a Blackstone sample. On the far right, the column is titled “National Averages” and gives base numbers. These to me are general numbers that for the most part are acceptable?? So they don’t want a sample of the fresh oil you are using and start with those base numbers?

For example, my lab wanted and was supplied a fresh uncontaminated sample of Amsoil to start with those hard base numbers to go off of. The starting point of SODIUM in fresh Amsoil is “1” ppm. So when they saw my first oil change sample @1000kms, the SODIUM level was 11 ppm. The second oil change sample @10k SODIUM was 9 ppm and the 3rd early taken sample SODIUM spiked to 16 ppm. I would guess if I do a regular oil change sample at another 4000kms, the 16ppm would look more like 20-23ppm SODIUM from a clean base number of 1 ppm, shows a big problem is coming. But if I was looking at my numbers doing there thing, and cross checking it with the acceptable NATIONAL AVERAGE, I wouldn’t be alarmed.

You need the base numbers from the oil you’re using to cross check, no??

EDIT- additional info:
My lab highlighted the SODIUM columns in all 3 samples but ALERTED to coolant leak in the last 2 results. To back up their suspicion that I had an internal leak they also ran a separate GLYTEC test to be absolutely certain coolant was in the oil.

The far right column "Universal Averages is amalgamation of "ALL" oil samples that have been submitted against that engine type regardless of brand and oil grade. It is a average and not necessarily a standard of what the oil should be for your particular sample.

Blackstone does not test your submitted sample against a virgin baseline of the oil brand sample one submits but just an indication of what wear metals, chemical by products and oil additive remaining in that sample in addition to checking the weight grade shearing and remaining flashpoint.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/services/report-explanation/

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