Trying to gather info to find commonality on "misfires"

[Maximus Gladius]

The far right column "Universal Averages is amalgamation of "ALL" oil samples that have been submitted against that engine type regardless of brand and oil grade. It is a average and not necessarily a standard of what the oil should be for your particular sample.

Blackstone does not test your submitted sample against a virgin baseline of the oil brand sample one submits but just an indication of what wear metals, chemical by products and oil additive remaining in that sample in addition to checking the weight grade shearing and remaining flashpoint.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/services/report-explanation/

To me, that’s strange and inaccurate. That type of cross checking, to “mean average every sample for that engine” doesn’t tell you the hard base numbers of the oil you’re using.
I think for shits and giggles I’ll grab a bottle of Mopar 0/20 from the parts store and run it to my lab this morning. I’ll have the results tomorrow.
“IF” the Mopar oil SODIUM is anywhere near what Amsoil’s number is, and you’re seeing 14….?? Then you can take it from there and decide how sodium grows from smaller numbers.
In my case, “trace” amounts of coolant burning off is raising the sodium numbers and alerted the lab tech.
Let’s have some fun.

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[ShadowsPapa]

They do it very different from others I've seen. They wanted a baseline sample. Different oils may have different starting values due to proprietary additives (which actually do most of the work). One may start with some extremely low number of xx while another starts with more - so they want to know where those came from - engine or were they in the oil in that quantity to begin with.
I'd not worry about the averages of all samples because those may, and likely will be, skewed. Since they are receiving samples from businesses and individuals, truck engines, motorcycles, race cars, an old Camaro 350, a new LS engine - the numbers will be all over the place.
I'd especially ignore those averages if they take samples from diesels or heavy equipment. Frankly, I don't see the value of those universal averages - they'd lump really bad samples with perfectly clean samples.

Would love to see what they make of my bio-syn oil from my race car. Without a baseline, they'd likely be scratching their heads.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Went to my local Chrysler dealership to buy a bottle of Mopar 0/20. NOPE. Run out of stock. He said they’ve also run out of Penzoil.

HMMMM I said to myself. Some months back I mention something here on the site that the local KAL Tire manager had mentioned to a staff member to stock up on 1000 cases of Pensoil because a certain additive required in oils was becoming scarce. I talked to him after that and he said they normally order 300 ish cases for the store at a time and it’s possible, the memo from head office, was concerning enough to stock up. Some here on the site had there adverse reaction to my bring attention to it…
So either the additive supply is down and top quality oil can’t be made or it’s bad management or they didn’t order enough and let the stock run out. (I wonder what the techs are using in the service bays??) Anyway, that’s an off topic, I have to drive out of town to find a bottle.

 

[Hootbro]

To me, that’s strange and inaccurate. That type of cross checking, to “mean average every sample for that engine” doesn’t tell you the hard base numbers of the oil you’re using.
I think for shits and giggles I’ll grab a bottle of Mopar 0/20 from the parts store and run it to my lab this morning. I’ll have the results tomorrow.
“IF” the Mopar oil SODIUM is anywhere near what Amsoil’s number is, and you’re seeing 14….?? Then you can take it from there and decide how sodium grows from smaller numbers.
In my case, “trace” amounts of coolant burning off is raising the sodium numbers and alerted the lab tech.
Let’s have some fun.

Blackstone Laboratories here in the USA caters to the DIY and small fleet crowd. You are not the first I have heard question their methodology.

 

[Hootbro]

For a reference, here is the first sample I took on my then 2014 Wrangler with the Pentastar 3.6l at 5K miles with 5W/20 factory fill instead of 0W/20. Sodium and Potassium is roughly in the same ballpark and I would assume both were Pennzoil Products used in the factory fill.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Went to the second dealership for actual MOPAR 0/20,…NOPE. No stock. He said they have branded 5/20 but they are now running Pennzoil 0/20. So, grabbed a bottle and running that to the lab.

I asked the parts guy how easy is it to bring in oil stock,…all their gear oil is on back order. Can’t get it. That additive shortage is a thing.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Blackstone Laboratories here in the USA caters to the DIY and small fleet crowd. You are not the first I have heard question their methodology.

That makes sense - so their averages won't be contaminated with fleet, diesel, or heavy equipment samples.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

For reference - I keep track of the fluids with photos now - so I can tell exactly what's going on and don't have to "remember" - now, was it just above or just below or in the middle of the line - and when was that?" because it's in the time/date stamp of the photo and the photo shows pretty clearly the exact level.

This is where mine has been since - well, pretty much shortly after I got it. Obviously the dealership has never added any as I look it over before it goes in so I can try to tell what they've touched and if they are checking fluids and such like they claim. The levels of the PS, brake fluid and coolant have been rock solid for months.
I know even ambient temperature changes can make fluid levels look differently - so I try to keep track in my mind that sort of thing, too.
This was checked before I started the truck - it's been sitting since mid-morning yesterday.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

For a reference, here is the first sample I took on my then 2014 Wrangler with the Pentastar 3.6l at 5K miles with 5W/20 factory fill instead of 0W/20. Sodium and Potassium is roughly in the same ballpark and I would assume both were Pennzoil Products used in the factory fill.

Here we go! Just got out of the meeting with the oil lab tech (Metro Tech Systems Ltd, Petroleum Products Consultants)-Calgary, AB.

The tech’s comments are this: A generic mean average of base numbers is not an accurate reference point to draw any clear cross data. To know exactly what is happening in your own engine is to start a clear reference point from a fresh un contaminated bottle of oil being used in the engine. If the SODIUM starts at “1” from the bottle and a sample is taken 10k later that shows higher numbers in sodium, contamination is getting in either by coolant or salt dust from winter driving. A GLYTEC test is what’s done next to determine, on a colour chart, the concentration of coolant in the oil. This test is done if SODIUM numbers are higher than the fresh reference point free of charge as part of the fee to sample the oil. If after that, more test is needed to determine coolant concentration, a further test is done which costs about $200.

The tech pulled up the fresh Pennzoil 0/20 results done in 2019 and the SODIUM (Na) level is “1”, just like Amsoil. The data is attached. I’m having him run the fresh bottle anyway and I’ll have those numbers tomorrow.
My SODIUM (Na) numbers of 11, 9 and 16 are serious concern backed up by the GLYTEC test.

He said to have a generic acceptable number of 30 is absolutely unacceptable without reason to be so much higher than what comes in the oil.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I can't see sodium (Na) getting in to THESE engines via road salt. To get into the oil - it's got to pass filters and more - and sodium in aluminum intakes and so on would lead to white aluminum oxide if left.
Then it's got to get past the combustion process, past the rings, into the crankcase.
So that has to be "generically speaking".
Could be wrong, but the path from road salt's sodium (NA) is very long.....
I'm rather surprised - but then again not - by the fact our DOT still uses sodium chloride instead of calcium chloride. The cost, I guess - although the latter is saver for the plant life around here.

 

[Hootbro]

He said to have a generic acceptable number of 30 is absolutely unacceptable without reason to be so much higher than what comes in the oil.

It's an average of all oil samples submitted to them regardless of brand and weight used on that engine.

I dug through all my other oil samples and found one where I ued Valvoline conventional 5W/20 on my wifes 2010 FJ cruiser. It had a sodium level of 241 ppm which was not out of the ordinary because up until a couple of years ago, Valvoline used high levels of sodium as a detergent additive in their oil formulations back then. Even found older oil analysis of Valvoline conventional with 350+ ppm.

So, it is not unexpected to see a 30 ppm in a universal average report. Blackstone never claims those universal averages are what you should expect.

Also, when looking at any of my reports over time, I am not brand loyal to any oil brand. I buy whatever is on sale, clearance and deep rebated so each oil analysis of a given vehicle could totally be a different brand oil but is always a current API spec and "usually" with in the recommend grade for the vehicle I run it in. Main things I key in on with any oil analysis is actual wear metals over time and any dramatic spike of both Potassium and Sodium to indicate coolant issue and not so much sodium by itself without a corresponding elevate Potassium level.

 

[stew7710]

Did some drives with JSCAN and only tripped two misfires. No codes were stored. When I felt the 'surging' sensation, no codes were tripped. So I don't have a correlation to what or how the misfires were created.

I am starting to wonder if it's the transmission programming messing with the ECU and pulling timing for a brief second or two. I may try to record a video of the tach and see if it pulses while doing a steady pull and I feel the surging/misfire sensation.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Did some drives with JSCAN and only tripped two misfires. No codes were stored. When I felt the 'surging' sensation, no codes were tripped. So I don't have a correlation to what or how the misfires were created.

I am starting to wonder if it's the transmission programming messing with the ECU and pulling timing for a brief second or two. I may try to record a video of the tach and see if it pulses while doing a steady pull and I feel the surging/misfire sensation.

The way I finally got the engine light to finally come on was to stomp on the throttle. I was travelling at highway speeds at the time I stood on the gas peddle.

I had noticed problems at those times and would back off and just take it easy. I finally just decided I was tired of that and just leaned into the problem,… all hell broke loose then, violent shaking, engine light flashing and dinging. I let off the throttle, engine light stopped flashing and stayed on. The truck smoothed out and I drove like grandpa to the dealership and it was the PO302 #2 cylinder misfire. That was the first engine code and injector fix. The second time it happened, I did the same thing on the highway. All the bells and whistles happened again but then the engine light self healed. I knew the tech wouldn’t be able to find a problem so I waited till I was about 10 min away from the dealership, still on the highway coming into town and I stood on the throttle till all hell broke loose again. All the drama started again and the light stayed on for them.

 

[stew7710]

I had enough frustration with the misfire and inability for the dealer to try and resolve. "You have plenty of warranty remaining." - so, I found a Nacho Rubicon discounted $9k with a few more options, so I sold my Mojave to CarMax and I couldn't be happier.

The Rubicon has a March 2021 build date, steel steering box and no misfire sensations. If anything changes, I will report back in this thread.

 

[Hootbro]

Update on my random cold start #4 cylinder misfire previously discussed:

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...monality-on-misfires.46334/page-3#post-764295

Still waiting on my oil analysis from Blackstone that is at least week behind their usual turn around time as of this writing.

Came up on my 30K mile service this weekend and decide to go ahead and do the spark plug change out and while I was in there swapped the #4 fuel injector and Ignition coil to another position. After all that, still have the #4 cylinder showing a small misfire count on cold startup. So unless the oil analysis shows a coolant issue, probably looking at valvetrain or head issue.

At this point, since the intermittent P0304 code is always a pending but never posting and no discernable driving issue or engine noise concern, probably going to just live with it as I know the dealership is not going to jump on this with no hard code setting for the P0304 code.

I will say after doing the spark plug swap by the book from Tech Authority info and the quoted 2.0 hours of shop time they give, there is no way in hell a dealership tech will meet that 2.0 hour quote without being absolutely ham fisted in doing the job. 4.0 would be a more realistic time to do it right. Shop Manual info also does not list out disconnecting wiring stand offs and few other odds and ends that are attached to the upper intake manifold.

Update:

I also check the removed spark plugs with color and wear matching the other cylinders for the #4. Also bore scoped to look inside the #4 cylinder and seems to show usual and comparable combustion deposits and not clean like a coolant leak would show.

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