3.0 Derating Problem SOLVED…(maybe)

[JTdiRtyD]

So let’s now remember the good ‘ol days where back in the 80’s our engines had distributors and points and as we drove up higher grades and mountain passes our engines would start knocking so you would just pull over and turn the distributor to adjust the timing and off you go with no knocking. It was to compensate for the lack of oxygen at the higher elevation. So, now we don’t deal with distributors but the computer makes those timing adjustments the higher you go until it can’t and as you keep climbing the more your stepping into the throttle, more heat is generated and the less oxygen there is.

So here’s my fix (idea) for this (keep reading) let’s say the assembly plant in Ohio recalibrates the engine to 604 ft, from 49 feet before putting it on the transport truck to deliver them all over the place. When you’ve taken this truck on a road trip to New Mexico or AZ, NV or maybe even to Trinidad, Colorado where I’m told you can’t get a hot cup of coffee or hot shower there because the elevation is over 6000 ft, RECALIBRATE the computer when you’re starting to notice derating because as I said, the computer can only adjust so much before it can’t or it wasn’t programmed to adjust more than it’s designed to do. I think recalibrating would reset it at the elevation the truck is having problems with and you’d be good to go.

My brain hurts after trying to read your book of word soup, but I'll try to hit on this particular point.

First off, diesels don't run on spark, so this whole timing thought process is null, but I'll still explain it.

Modern ECU/PCM/engine computers are near infinitely adjustable in terms of timing per the conditions. There is really no limit as it adjusts fuel and timing per atmo pressure. Sure, you will eventually start losing power because the less air you have the less fuel you add, but the timing is still correct per the conditions. Points/distros couldn't do this because of physical mechanical limits.

However, with tuning you are kind of on the right track, except the PCM is already doing what you explain. Diesel tuning is actually quite simple because there is no timing to deal with. Thats why you can have plug-n-play tuners without any dyno tuning. It's literally just a equation of fuel added per torque demand. Where tuning comes into play with elevation is the percentage of fuel required for a given range of atmo pressure, and it's all calculated off the base formula. For example, for each "x" bar drop in atmo adjust fuel by "x" percent of base values.

Regardless the engine type, tuning with elevation changes is all a best guess, so things can be off as you climb.

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[Zachanadandy]

Would you say that these 3.0’s are having the same “heat issues” at sea level as those I’m reading occurring at higher elevations. We could say sea level and higher elevations is “apples to apples” comparison?

If I was to run a marathon at 9000 ft and do the same at sea level, I know I’d perform better where oxygenated air is more dense.

If I was a betting man and my 3.0 was derating and losing power at higher elevations, if I could snap my fingers and instead of being at 9k or 10k elevation, all of a sudden be at sea level, the temps would come back to normal, power would come back and derating would stop unless of course it’s an electrical issue

Don't own a diesel but have pushed the 3.6L to the point of heat soak and climbing engine temps climbing grades at 80+mph everywhere from 2500' to 10k'+. It's not an oxygen or altitude issue it's a barely adequate cooling system issue. Altitude doesn't help but it's not the root cause. You don't see the problem at sea level as it's rare to have long steep grades at the beach and outside temps are generally cooler. Climb a grade coming out of Baker when it's 115⁰. You're only starting at ~900' but it's uphill for 20 miles and peaks at 6k feet. Again it's not the elevation it's a cooling system that can't keep up. Water injection in the intake and derating is gone... and it's not because you added oxygen. You significantly reduced both intake air and combustion chamber temps.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Ok, great explanations and I’m learning a ton here. So focusing on cooling ideas, I frequently visit Auto Value in Calgary a few times a year and I spotted this stuff you add to your coolant that cools temps by changing the coolant chemistry. Immediately thinking of all you 3.0 heat problem owners, I discussed this stuff with the owner. He said it’s not “snake oil” and has been tested and works.

Just another idea that might work when everything else has failed. IDK

 

[Sbro2021]

Ok, great explanations and I’m learning a ton here. So focusing on cooling ideas, I frequently visit Auto Value in Calgary a few times a year and I spotted this stuff you add to your coolant that cools temps by changing the coolant chemistry. Immediately thinking of all you 3.0 heat problem owners, I discussed this stuff with the owner. He said it’s not “snake oil” and has been tested and works.

Just another idea that might work when everything else has failed. IDK

Tried these, specifically the purple bottle, absolutely does not do anything to improve the coolant wetability to improve cooling efficiency. Snake oil!!!

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Tried these, specifically the purple bottle, absolutely does not do anything to improve the coolant wetability to improve cooling efficiency. Snake oil!!!

Figured I might be a bit late to the game. I hope you all find a real solution. Peace

 

[Zachanadandy]

Tried these, specifically the purple bottle, absolutely does not do anything to improve the coolant wetability to improve cooling efficiency. Snake oil!!!

Their dyno test results aren't real clear, but I wonder what % of the capacity they are talking about? Are they adding a single 16oz bottle to an 11qt cooling system and seeing results? Are they replacing 50% of the capacity with their product? Did you just add a single 16oz bottle and see no benefit? Water only seems to be more effective than their product plus the typical 50/50 mix so there's that option. They had a 3 pack of the hyperlube brand for $22 on amazon so I'll drain out enough to add 48oz of the stuff and see if it helps. Next desert trip is 2 weeks away so I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[biodiesel]

Tried these, specifically the purple bottle, absolutely does not do anything to improve the coolant wetability to improve cooling efficiency. Snake oil!!!

The water wetter works to a certain degree, but that doesn't help much with the oil temps, which is what the biggest issue is. In order to reduce oil temps, you would need to go to a larger oil pan. Even adding an oil by-pass system might help a little since that should increase capacity by nearly a quart.

I added a deep oil pan with cooling fins on my 2015 Ram Ecodiesel. It increased the oil capacity to nearly 12 quarts. That made a noticeable difference when towing on long steep grades. My truck no longer sees those derate temps that I used to see.

 

[Zachanadandy]

I know this started as an ecodiesel discussion but our 3.6Ls need cooling help too. Anyone tried something like this https://a.co/d/2R6SKle? See any significant drop in engine oil temps?

 

[biodiesel]

I know this started as an ecodiesel discussion but our 3.6Ls need cooling help too. Anyone tried something like this https://a.co/d/2R6SKle? See any significant drop in engine oil temps?

As long as it's a clean install, then I'm all for it. My concern with so many aftermarket oil coolers is the failure points being introduced. Even bypass filters can get dicey because they can also introduce failure points. Nonetheless, oil coolers do work and are very effective.

 

[JTdiRtyD]

I know this started as an ecodiesel discussion but our 3.6Ls need cooling help too. Anyone tried something like this https://a.co/d/2R6SKle? See any significant drop in engine oil temps?

I think you'd have better results running an aux cooler like these here. These are marketed for Nissan/Infiniti but they could be used on anything honestly. I had one for my G35 that I stupidly tossed because the mounting tab broke off, now I wish I would have kept it, I could have made it work. I do plan to get one and find a way to mount it this fall sometime, but I wanted to wait until after our Sept trip to Colorado so I have a baseline to compare to. But I'm having issues sourcing an oil filter sandwich plate since the EcoD doesn't use the typical spin on filters.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Their dyno test results aren't real clear, but I wonder what % of the capacity they are talking about? Are they adding a single 16oz bottle to an 11qt cooling system and seeing results? Are they replacing 50% of the capacity with their product? Did you just add a single 16oz bottle and see no benefit? Water only seems to be more effective than their product plus the typical 50/50 mix so there's that option. They had a 3 pack of the hyperlube brand for $22 on amazon so I'll drain out enough to add 48oz of the stuff and see if it helps. Next desert trip is 2 weeks away so I'll keep everyone posted.

My concern is, is it compatible to the OAT coolant. I looked at a “coolant conditioner” from another source that states on their bottle “compatible with all coolants”. Further digging into that conditioner, the base was “propylene glycol”.

From the reading of my owners manual, OAT is an ethylene glycol and can’t be mixed with propylene and if it is mixed, must be flushed out. I contacted that company and told them about this.

I asked the Auto Value owner if these two products were compatible with OAT, his reply was “it should be”.

That’s not concrete enough for me. I need to find the data sheet or MSDS sheet on these products to know for sure.

 

[Rusty PW]

I think you'd have better results running an aux cooler like these here. These are marketed for Nissan/Infiniti but they could be used on anything honestly. I had one for my G35 that I stupidly tossed because the mounting tab broke off, now I wish I would have kept it, I could have made it work. I do plan to get one and find a way to mount it this fall sometime, but I wanted to wait until after our Sept trip to Colorado so I have a baseline to compare to. But I'm having issues sourcing an oil filter sandwich plate since the EcoD doesn't use the typical spin on filters.

I have the 34 row Z1 oil cooler on my Nismo.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Their dyno test results aren't real clear, but I wonder what % of the capacity they are talking about? Are they adding a single 16oz bottle to an 11qt cooling system and seeing results? Are they replacing 50% of the capacity with their product? Did you just add a single 16oz bottle and see no benefit? Water only seems to be more effective than their product plus the typical 50/50 mix so there's that option. They had a 3 pack of the hyperlube brand for $22 on amazon so I'll drain out enough to add 48oz of the stuff and see if it helps. Next desert trip is 2 weeks away so I'll keep everyone posted.

Here’s a write up from Summit Racing that shows it’s compatible with both ethylene and propylene glycol, our OAT coolant being ethylene.

It also speaks of the mixture and what % does best.
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/red-diesel water wetter supercoolant.pdf

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I looked up the MSDS data sheet for both Rislone and Red Line Super coolant and did not see propylene glycol as their base chemical. I’m not a chemist so can not speak to the compatibility of their base chemicals used and our OAT coolant. That would take someone with a much higher pay grade and IQ and understanding than me to know which packages work better.
This first one is Rislone Super Coolant:

Trying to find the Red Line MSDS sheet is a bit more problematic. I can find one for their pink solution but not the purple stuff, or I need to sign in for a PDF. Will keep looking

 

[Zachanadandy]

Here’s a write up from Summit Racing that shows it’s compatible with both ethylene and propylene glycol, our OAT coolant being ethylene.

It also speaks of the mixture and what % does best.
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/red-diesel water wetter supercoolant.pdf

It says 1% water wetter? So for our 11qt cooling system we only need 3.2oz? If that's the case, and especially if it is less effective at higher concentrations, I'd bet that almost everyone who's tried it is using way too much and that's why they aren't seeing results. Being that it's rarely below freezing where I live I think I might try dropping my coolant to 33% and adding 1% water wetter and see what happens.

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