Why no max tow with the manual transmission?

[flsupraguy]

I understand the max tow has beefier hardware along with wider axles, bigger brakes, and more cooling but why couldn't they offer it in manual form? Is the clutch the limiting factor?

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[LostWoods]

It's a weak unit that's marginally rated for the power it does handle. More weight means more stress and they have enough issues already without slapping 7k behind them.

 

[Mr._Bill]

I understand the max tow has beefier hardware along with wider axles, bigger brakes, and more cooling but why couldn't they offer it in manual form? Is the clutch the limiting factor?

Yes, the clutch and manual transmission used by Jeep is a major limiting factor for towing capacity.

 

[arneb04]

Most manuals nowadays are pretty weak units. Auto manufacturers haven’t put any R&D into them at all, and they have done all kinds of work on auto transmissions. Used to be you’d expect several mpgs higher on a manual 5spd trans over an auto 4 or 5spd even with OD, and that’s not the case anymore. Almost every car made now is rated for less mpgs w/manual vs the auto. There was a good article I read somewhere about why the gladiator doesn’t have a tow/haul mode and it essentially breaks it down that the auto trans is so good with gearing and so adaptable it doesn’t need a special mode, it just does it. After towing with mine, I have been exceptionally impressed even vs the Titan I came from which did have tow/haul but still made questionable shifts.

 

[Gvsukids]

I understand the max tow has beefier hardware along with wider axles, bigger brakes, and more cooling but why couldn't they offer it in manual form? Is the clutch the limiting factor?

Some more reading...
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/max-tow-manual-trans.14646/

 

[WXman]

The trans is somewhat weak, but the clutch is even weaker. They tune those things for the least pedal effort possible these days, to try and make day to day use more enjoyable. But when they do that, the lack of clamping force makes it a poor choice for work and towing.

Also, in the old days when Jeeps had 3 and 4 speed autos that were garbage, the manual trans was desirable because it offered 5 speeds and was more reliable relative to the auto. Now that has totally flopped. The auto now is 8 speeds and is one of the best transmissions in the world. It's almost bulletproof. And it can be shifted manually. So there is no reason to take the manual trans anymore, which is why a tiny fraction of sales have the manual.

I've had several manual transmissions in a lot of vehicles over the years. I have to admit that the stick shift trans in my old 2013 JKU was the worst manual trans I've ever driven. I hear that the new ones are even worse.

 

[brianinca]

I drove a 6 spd JKR and it was like shifting a UPS van. Such a bummer!

I've had several manual transmissions in a lot of vehicles over the years. I have to admit that the stick shift trans in my old 2013 JKU was the worst manual trans I've ever driven. I hear that the new ones are even worse.

 

[WXman]

I drove a 6 spd JKR and it was like shifting a UPS van. Such a bummer!

Yes I used to refer to it as a dump truck, but a UPS van fits the description pretty well too. It was awful. And the clutch engagement was terrible too.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

There was a good article I read somewhere about why the gladiator doesn’t have a tow/haul mode and it essentially breaks it down that the auto trans is so good with gearing and so adaptable it doesn’t need a special mode, it just does it.

I could argue that point after towing yesterday on our hills and highways. It stayed in 4th as I got onto hwy65 and attempted to achieve 65 mph. It's up hill for a good mile. It stuck in 4th at about 4,000 RPM until it finally hit 5th as things started to level off - I finally hit 65 mph. Once I hit ground that was a bit more level it shifted to 7th, then 8th, and then 5 seconds later, back down to 6th as it was woosing out trying to maintain 65 even on ground we in Iowa consider level (that doesn't exist here unless you go to the NW part of the state where the glaciers leveled things off)
Most of the time it was a matter of 2500 rpm or so, several times it stuck around 3,000 rpm, frequently saw 4,000 rpm. When it did shift up to 7th, then 8th, it didn't stay there for more than a few seconds at best.
I finally popped it into manual mode as I was sick of it STILL with that load trying to achieve 1500 rpm in 8th gear. 8th gear should totally disappear or be locked out when towing, IMO. It's totally worthless. My trip just to test things out yesterday, it tried 8th gear about 6 times or so and didn't stay there for any longer than 4 or 5 seconds top.
The truck spent most of its time at 2500-3,000 rpm, quite a few stretches it was at 4,000 trying to get up to speed.
On the positive side - the transmission temp hung around 198-210 degrees, oil about 220, coolant temp ranged from 197 to 220. (coolant temp on these things take some wild swings.
I wanted to see how that transmission did under the load and the stupid constant tries to get to 8th gear. Towing with the engine RPM under 2,000 is crazy but that seems to be what the PCM's goal is even with 4800 pounds in tow.
Obviously, I'm going to be in M mode in this a lot next month.

 

[Munkey Boy]

I think more to the point is that the automatic removes the driver from the equation, mileage and other notable numbers then become extremely consistent and predictable. Marketing always trumps engineering, even though these trucks are delightfully overbuilt.

This manual is definitely not like any manual I've ever driven. I can only describe it as being in between a "normal" manual and an auto. It's borderline stupid, but still satisfyingly fun IMO. I wouldn't describe it as a dump truck or UPS van, but I'd say it's like a hot hatch with the short throw coupled with a clutch pedal that is "dainty." Feel takes a bit of getting used to for sure. I drive a '79 CJ5 at work, when I get back in my JT I find myself stomping on the clutch to comical ends.

As far as being weaker, I honestly can't say; but the clutch design is a definite weak point. However, if one installed an aftermarket Centerforce that uses a classic big, dumb chunk o' metal and at least a 410 or Max Tow rear end, I'd guess the transmission would produce similar numbers and longevity as the auto. I'd be curious about numbers for similar sized trucks from the past with manuals regarding towing abilities in comparison mainly because the capabilities of the auto now is ridiculously better than before, which understandably throw the manual's strength into shade. The auto truly is exceptional and if towing is a high priority, there is no doubt that it is the best option.

The other issue is that the manual market is VERY tiny at best. Jeep lists it as "standard" equipment, but when that term applies to maybe 5% of what's available then that definition gets real fuzzy. But this then opens up the can of worms argument for a la carte ordering from the factory. Ease, efficiency, and cost of production of trim levels and packages always wins over pick and choose. Again, marketing wins.

 

[arneb04]

I could argue that point after towing yesterday on our hills and highways. It stayed in 4th as I got onto hwy65 and attempted to achieve 65 mph. It's up hill for a good mile. It stuck in 4th at about 4,000 RPM until it finally hit 5th as things started to level off - I finally hit 65 mph. Once I hit ground that was a bit more level it shifted to 7th, then 8th, and then 5 seconds later, back down to 6th as it was woosing out trying to maintain 65 even on ground we in Iowa consider level (that doesn't exist here unless you go to the NW part of the state where the glaciers leveled things off)
Most of the time it was a matter of 2500 rpm or so, several times it stuck around 3,000 rpm, frequently saw 4,000 rpm. When it did shift up to 7th, then 8th, it didn't stay there for more than a few seconds at best.
I finally popped it into manual mode as I was sick of it STILL with that load trying to achieve 1500 rpm in 8th gear. 8th gear should totally disappear or be locked out when towing, IMO. It's totally worthless.

Well 8th might not exist at all with a tow mode. Depends on what kind, some are engineered to shorten shifts and some just simply lock out O/D. This thing kind of does both. It’s not perfect, but it adapts really quickly from what I’ve experienced, though I haven’t touched the weight youre pulling. My boat is only about 2k fully loaded. But my gen 2 Titan for being rated at 9800 or whatever was awful compared to the Jeep. Also why they only offered the 7spd tranny for like 2 years before dumping it for a 9. That and I think it had 2.93 gears in it with a tow package. Much better at deadening rough roads but probably more because of the total truck size and weight than anything.

 

[red/green hawk]

I liken this 8 spd tranny to a 5 spd with a granny gear and 2 ODs. Driving from Albuquerque to Denver and back with the cruise set to 78 mph I rarely saw it hit 8th gear. There are a lot of gradient changes and only a few spots that were truly flat straight aways. 6th was the sweet spot and it would stay in 7th often enough on down hills when the cruise wasn't downshifting to slow it down and staight aways. But any slight uphill changes it would go right back to 6th.

 

[MPMB]

I understand the max tow has beefier hardware along with wider axles, bigger brakes, and more cooling but why couldn't they offer it in manual form? Is the clutch the limiting factor?

because the manual sucks.

 

[WXman]

There was a good article I read somewhere about why the gladiator doesn’t have a tow/haul mode and it essentially breaks it down that the auto trans is so good with gearing and so adaptable it doesn’t need a special mode, it just does it.

Yeah I remember Mark Allen talking about how the truck knows it's under load and adapts automatically. That annoys me and I'm not sure I believe it. I just traded a 2020 Ram 1500 with the same engine and same transmission. It had a tow/haul mode with a switch on the dash. And it made a noticeable difference. When I tow the same trailer with the Gladiator, that difference doesn't occur. I'm calling shenanigans on his claim that the JT automatically adapts.

However, the JT does allow true manual shifting which the DT does not so that sort of makes up for it, at least a little bit.

 

[spectre6000]

I drove a 6 spd JKR and it was like shifting a UPS van. Such a bummer!

I'm DDing a JKUR now with a manual (wife's). I've had lots of manual transmissions over the years. It is far and away my least favorite. And that includes a gravel filled FJ40 and a '62 VW bus (talk about a long throw... I actually installed an extender on the shift knob so I could get all the gears without having to lean down like I was going to kiss the radio!). I genuinely think the automatic is a better option in this application. Ignoring the off road torque application advantages, the specs that come with it just make the manual not really an option.

Oh, and they decoupled the shift linkage in the JL/JTs... So in addition to being a bummer of a shift, it should be pretty numb now as well. I haven't driving one, but for the first time in my automotive life I really don't have much interest in doing so.

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