4-tire rotation vs 5-tire rotation

[AKID_RBM]

How does the sensor programming work on a 5 tire rotation? Does it have to be reprogrammed everytime or does the computer just link to original 4?

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[Mac Attack]

No they won't. And tire shops won't touch tires over 7 years old. The tire shops here, the legit ones, they look at the date on the sidewall and in two shops they saw a date of just over 7 years and not so politely suggested I take the tire back home.

Further - we have multiple times run into tire issues where a hazard went through the tire within 1" of the sidewall or edge of the tread - that also won't touch those! Imagine a Jeep with about 30,000 miles on it and you blow a tire and they won't fix it. There's still 20,000 left on the others and you can't get that matching tread any more. What do you do? You talk the guy into fixing it if you put it on as a spare and use the spare instead and go back to a 4 tire rotation.
I've had situations where having a matching spare that was rotated in saved me hundreds of dollars as I didn't have to go buy one tire and got by until I needed another set.
The tire companies recommend it, JEEP recommends it (it's in the owner manuals!)

There's tons of discussion on this very topic. Jeep and tire makers even recommend 5 tire rotations. The Jeep owner manual says "if so equipped" (meaning matching wheel and tire) to do a 5 tire rotation. There's several great YT videos on the reasoning.



That's a total crock of shit - unadulterated BS. There's ALWAYS movement on those gears anyway - ya think they stay totally still back there? Even on what you think is a level highway, there's movement. And the reason TO DO a 5 tire rotation is to keep all tires evenly worn.
"The guy at the tire shop" isn't trained or educated and has never been a mechanic - he sells and mounts and balances tires. That's usually it.
And if you figure the wear like I have and have posted here multiple times about this very topic - the difference in tire size when you DO a 5 tire rotation is about 2 revolutions per mile! You have more difference than that taking a curve on an entrance or exit ramp. The guy is full of it. I've been at this for 45 years including working selling and fixing tires and I've done the math.
I've also spent my life as a mechanic rebuilding and repairing things including differentials. If 2 or 3 revolutions per mile difference bothers you, you need to never take that gentle curve on the highway. I'd bet that you have that sort of a difference anyway due to what's called the rolling diameter based on PSI and weight of the truck and other factors.
I have always done a 5 tire on any vehicle I've ever owned that had a matching spare - and I bought a wheel so I could do it on this truck. The math is real - the difference is extremely small when you plug in the diameter difference and figure rotational differences.

And no it's not more expensive unless you trade vehicles every couple of years or 30,000 miles. It's a wash in the long run if you keep a vehicle longer than 1 set or 2 of tires.

Direct quote from Tire Rack -
if the vehicle's four wheels and tires on the ground match the spare wheel and tire (if non-directional and not branded "for temporary use"), they should be included in the tire rotation pattern.




But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

Makes total sense to me...logic says 5 tires are better than 4...and your analysis supports that. Thanks.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

How does the sensor programming work on a 5 tire rotation? Does it have to be reprogrammed everytime or does the computer just link to original 4?

I have TPMS sensors in all 5. It only detects and uses the 4 on the corners.
I had another set of wheels and tires with sensors and when I swapped those on for winter, it detected them in seconds, and when I swapped back, it detected the change. Even with the others in the back of the truck it only detected those on the 4 corners.
With my 5 tires and wheels each having a sensor, it works fine. When I rotate, it senses the ones on the truck and ignores the one under the truck.
I bought the sensor for the spare from Benny, a forum sponsor, allmoparparts dot com.
He's got a thread "what can we do for you". He's a great guy. He's selling the exact same parts you buy from a dealer parts department but at a good discount.
(I think he's actually part of some dealership as all parts I get from him have dealer stickers and addresses on them but that's just me thinking aloud)

I've never needed to program anything at all.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

@ShadowsPapa I couldn’t say which model as most of the stickers have deteriorated. Looks a lot like This one just without the carlyle branding.

Thanks - I love my NAPA jack stands. Will take a look.

 

[Blackjeepjk]

I appreciate this thread as it touches on a point in which I am interested.

All things being equal, I would do the 5 tire, but while I usually do my own oil changes, I have left rotations to the mechanics due to having limited jack access. But the video in this thread seemed to clarify that you can do the five tire rotation with only one jack.

Question: How many of you rotate your own tires vs. letting someone else do it?

I may need to invest in a good jack and stand and rethink this thing.

I used to let the tire store/dealer do it as it’s usually free with the tire but with my recent increase in size, no one wants to do them. So I’m doing myself. 5 tire rotation with 1 jack. But Man what a workout with 40’s!

 

[LostWoods]

Better to do it yourself anyway so you can save your lugnuts and studs over time. A five tire is simple that way because you just pull the spare and work your way around.

 

[Mtpisgah]

That's a total crock of shit - unadulterated BS. There's ALWAYS movement on those gears anyway - ya think they stay totally still back there? Even on what you think is a level highway, there's movement. And the reason TO DO a 5 tire rotation is to keep all tires evenly worn.
"The guy at the tire shop" isn't trained or educated and has never been a mechanic - he sells and mounts and balances tires. That's usually it.
And if you figure the wear like I have and have posted here multiple times about this very topic - the difference in tire size when you DO a 5 tire rotation is about 2 revolutions per mile! You have more difference than that taking a curve on an entrance or exit ramp. The guy is full of it. I've been at this for 45 years including working selling and fixing tires and I've done the math.
I've also spent my life as a mechanic rebuilding and repairing things including differentials. If 2 or 3 revolutions per mile difference bothers you, you need to never take that gentle curve on the highway. I'd bet that you have that sort of a difference anyway due to what's called the rolling diameter based on PSI and weight of the truck and other factors.
I have always done a 5 tire on any vehicle I've ever owned that had a matching spare - and I bought a wheel so I could do it on this truck. The math is real - the difference is extremely small when you plug in the diameter difference and figure rotational differences.

But non-professionals love to argue against it.........but can't give a VALID reason.

I have no idea what the reality is. I have read a lot of your posts and you have taught me a lot, you are obviously experienced. The guy who suggested that I not do a five tire rotation owns the shop that most likely does more lifts, regears, tires and other custom truck stuff than any other in the area (Not counting somewhere like Discount Tire for the simple tire replacememts). He has no reason to talk me out of buying a matching wheel and doing a five tire rotation. Maybe he is wrong about his reasoning, but I feel he believes what he was telling me.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

A difference of diameter of .18" is a whopping gear killing 5.4 revolutions per mile difference! Wow.
Seriously, that means if you wear .10" off your tires before you rotate you will see a difference of revolutions per mile of maybe 6.
3/32" is about .09" so do you wear 3/32" off your tires before rotating?

If you start with a new tire tread depth of 10/32", the actual usable tread depth is 8/32"
Spread that out over 40,000 miles.
If you rotate every 10,000 miles you, just for calculations here, would wear 2/32" tread before rotating again. That means you are likely seeing only 3-4 revolutions per mile difference. You have more than that just in normal driving per mile due to other factors.
If you rotate tires in less than 10,000 miles you aren't seeing more than 2-3 revolutions per mile difference. So if every mile one side turns 2 or 3 or even 4 times more than the other - will that build any heat? Any wear?
No. Over a mile they'd be moving so slow you would fall asleep before you saw movement.

Not sure why he believes a difference of rotation per mile of 1 to 3 or 4 is bad for anything. 100,000 miles that's not that many revolutions compared to the high-stress hypoid gears of the ring and pinion. Those are what run hot and literally slide over each other instead of rolling with each other.

 

[MyRight]

A difference of diameter of .18" is a whopping gear killing 5.4 revolutions per mile difference! Wow.
Seriously, that means if you wear .10" off your tires before you rotate you will see a difference of revolutions per mile of maybe 6.
3/32" is about .09" so do you wear 3/32" off your tires before rotating?

If you start with a new tire tread depth of 10/32", the actual usable tread depth is 8/32"
Spread that out over 40,000 miles.
If you rotate every 10,000 miles you, just for calculations here, would wear 2/32" tread before rotating again. That means you are likely seeing only 3-4 revolutions per mile difference. You have more than that just in normal driving per mile due to other factors.
If you rotate tires in less than 10,000 miles you aren't seeing more than 2-3 revolutions per mile difference. So if every mile one side turns 2 or 3 or even 4 times more than the other - will that build any heat? Any wear?
No. Over a mile they'd be moving so slow you would fall asleep before you saw movement.

Not sure why he believes a difference of rotation per mile of 1 to 3 or 4 is bad for anything. 100,000 miles that's not that many revolutions compared to the high-stress hypoid gears of the ring and pinion. Those are what run hot and literally slide over each other instead of rolling with each other.

Yeah, it really seems silly about a few extra rotations per mile, especially when there are those that take them mudding and one side spins dozens and dozens of times more than the other wheels and no one seems concerned about that...

 

[LostWoods]

I have no idea what the reality is. I have read a lot of your posts and you have taught me a lot, you are obviously experienced. The guy who suggested that I not do a five tire rotation owns the shop that most likely does more lifts, regears, tires and other custom truck stuff than any other in the area (Not counting somewhere like Discount Tire for the simple tire replacememts). He has no reason to talk me out of buying a matching wheel and doing a five tire rotation. Maybe he is wrong about his reasoning, but I feel he believes what he was telling me.

Well I'll throw my hat in in that ring... former ASE master tech who worked at just such a shop where we were the shop in the area where people sent problem cars for tires and suspension. The reason we rarely did five tire is because most vehicles don't have the capacity to hold a full size fifth. The exception is pretty much trucks and SUVs where the tire goes underneath or out back.

The only time I recommended they go with a 4-tire was when they put a lot of miles on it. If you replace tires every two years, you can easily buy 4 the second time and use a good used as the new spare. Othwerwise, do all five and rotate them in to make sure you're actually getting use out of the tire you paid for.

To add one more thing, a 5-tire done by yourself is much safer and easier than a 4-tire. You always have 3 tires on the ground and can do it with a single jack whereas a 4-tire requires lifting an entire side.

 

[Mr._Bill]

I appreciate this thread as it touches on a point in which I am interested.

All things being equal, I would do the 5 tire, but while I usually do my own oil changes, I have left rotations to the mechanics due to having limited jack access. But the video in this thread seemed to clarify that you can do the five tire rotation with only one jack.

Question: How many of you rotate your own tires vs. letting someone else do it?

I may need to invest in a good jack and stand and rethink this thing.

This is where a good floor jack comes in handy. The jack that comes with the truck is only intended for emergency use. I have not rotated my own tires for a decade or so. Now that I've used up my free oil changes, I may be doing it again. I'll have to go see if I can get them to do it at Sam's Club or Discount Tire. If not, I'll have to dust off the old Craftsman jack and stands.

 

[DankjeeP]

This. It all comes down to a financial equation but the most economical in terms of the tires themselves is to rotate all 5.

or don't even rotate at all, that will teach them, those fuckers. lol like granny used to say you fuckers need to get a life for FUCK SAKE.
Edit:
One thread kill credit in the bank lol.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

I don’t get it. Aren’t 4 tires always rotating?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not currently. They are sleeping in the garage for now.
They had fun in the snow yesterday, and are tired.....

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