Anyone with over 100k miles on their 3.6 yet ?

[JET_83]

I'm at 140k on my 2012 JKR with the OG 3.6 and AA left side head. It still runs perfect, doesn't burn oil, no ticking, UOA's come back showing no signs of wear. It's also ran a K&N air filter it's entire, thoroughly abused off-road life. Though I've been running Redline 5w30 in it since buying it new.

Our 2021 JT has 27k on it. Also switched to Redline 5w30 at the first oil change. Runs like a top. UOA's come back clean. I've disabled the start/stop.

On my third Ram with a Hemi. 2013 1500 had 160k miles when I traded it. 2017 1500 had 67k when I traded it. Ran 5w30 in those as well. Current 2020 2500 6.4 has 28k. Run 5w40 in it. I've ran Redline in all of them since new. None have ever ticked or shown any signs of abnormal wear.

I'm convinced these motors need better oil with high moly content to provide lubrication during cold, dry starts. I'm also convinced that FCA chasing CAFE standards by lowering oil viscosity is another cause of failed lifters and cams. You can just look at the history of the engine, when they made revisions and lowered viscosity and the resulting increase of lifter/cam issues. I'm not rocket surgeon, I just look at the data.

So what use 5W 30 instead of 0W 20?

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[Riccochet]

So what use 5W 30 instead of 0W 20?

It's a bit thicker, more film strength, less blow by.

Only reason FCA changed the viscosity was to chase CAFE standards. Thinner oil has less resistance for a fraction of a percent of better efficiency.

2010-2012 required 5W30
2013-mid2016 required 5W20
mid2016-present 0W20

People say they "redesigned" the engine to use 0W20. That's odd. Same part numbers for engine internals for my 2012 and 2021. Oil pump, bearings, pistons, rings, all the same. They didn't "redesign" shit.

 

[JET_83]

It's a bit thicker, more film strength, less blow by.

Only reason FCA changed the viscosity was to chase CAFE standards. Thinner oil has less resistance for a fraction of a percent of better efficiency.

2010-2012 required 5W30
2013-mid2016 required 5W20
mid2016-present 0W20

People say they "redesigned" the engine to use 0W20. That's odd. Same part numbers for engine internals for my 2012 and 2021. Oil pump, bearings, pistons, rings, all the same. They didn't "redesign" shit.

I haven’t changed my oil yet since it’s brand new and hasn’t reached the interval yet, so that’s what you’d recommend I use over the OW 20?

 

[Riccochet]

I haven’t changed my oil yet since it’s brand new and hasn’t reached the interval yet, so that’s what you’d recommend I use over the OW 20?

I'm not recommending anyone deviate from the manufacturers specification without doing your own due diligence. Simply stating what I use and have many years of experience with on these engines.

Hell, the oil I run isn't even API certified. Though Red Line does now offer their Professional series which is API certified. I would 100% recommend that oil.

 

[DanW]

Ill never understand the irrational disdain for the auto stop start.

Increased bearing wear. One of the Pentastar (gen 1) designers told me that. TIme will tell, though.

Mine has 62k and the only issue was with little seals on the camshaft position sensors. They seeped and caused a very slight film of oil on the valve covers. It was fixed quickly under warranty.

I've run 0w20 (Mostly Mobil 1) from the getgo. I flog my engine daily. When not being run hard (towing, too), it is crawling through rocks, dirt, sand, or mud. Runs like a champ. Love it.

lt's been said 1,000 times before. This engine (PUG in the JL/JT) was designed from the outset for 0w20. ALL durability testing was done on 0w20. You will have no issue running a good quality 0w20 and will see zero benefit from moving to 5w30.

There is a guy with a gen 1 Pentastar that ran over 600k miles on 5w20 with 7k mile oil changes. I'll be dead before mine reaches that kind of mileage.

 

[jwolfejt]

Increased bearing wear. One of the Pentastar (gen 1) designers told me that. TIme will tell, though.

Mine has 62k and the only issue was with little seals on the camshaft position sensors. They seeped and caused a very slight film of oil on the valve covers. It was fixed quickly under warranty.

I've run 0w20 (Mostly Mobil 1) from the getgo. I flog my engine daily. When not being run hard (towing, too), it is crawling through rocks, dirt, sand, or mud. Runs like a champ. Love it.

lt's been said 1,000 times before. This engine (PUG in the JL/JT) was designed from the outset for 0w20. ALL durability testing was done on 0w20. You will have no issue running a good quality 0w20 and will see zero benefit from moving to 5w30.

There is a guy with a gen 1 Pentastar that ran over 600k miles on 5w20 with 7k mile oil changes. I'll be dead before mine reaches that kind of mileage.

Yeah I don't baby mines around either - i am not sure if that has any contribution to it - more throttle/load does trigger oil pressure to go up from what i've been seeing. 0 issues here but only 75xx miles so far.

 

[jwolfejt]

What engine oil brand you use?

I just use pennzoil platinum 0W-20.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No issues, but always wonder what the constant ESS system restarting a motor that is draining oil back to oil pan does long term…..Jack

It has very little impact. These bearings have a special structure and coating on them, among other changes. As long as you use the recommended oil, etc. - it's not a problem. The biggest killer is cold starts. A lot more stress and the oil film has to work a heck of a lot harder on a cold start.
A quality oil has the film strength and can deal with the PSI involved.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I haven't seen anything that actually refutes the fact that starting your engine more times increases starter wear. So no...not tough to understand.

Not irrational as you stated.

I've posted the engineering info here. I've also worked on and restored starters for decades. Further, the ECU tracks every single thing about that engine as it stops - including which pistons are in which position, which injectors have fired and so on - there's no real load on the starter in an ESS start. The cold starts are killers. The ESS starts hardly have to move the engine at all - and it's warm, so is a fraction of the load. These don't use carbon brushes, they have bearings instead of bushings. They'll handle it. But the hate will continue for sure because non-engineers and non-mechanics love to hate what they don't like (or even understand)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No one knows for sure why it happens. Bad design, poor oiling, bad heat treat.????

Yeah, we have a pretty good idea.......... incorrect lash adjusters used in the intake lash adjuster position.
Note that it's almost always the odd bank (right) and the intake, not exhaust.

Crappy design.

Its been an issue since 2014. They started with replacing heads and stuff now we are onto cams and lifters.

No, it hasn't (been an issue since 2014). The design is TOTALLLY different. The failure have totally different root causes.
The pre-2016 engines had roller followers - and the bearings in the rollers failed. A TSB covered that.
The 2016 and later VVL engines don't even use the same followers, and it's not bearings that are failing.
People keep connecting the two with no understanding of the designs, or exactly what failed.
But because it involves cams in both cases, people assume.

I'm convinced these motors need better oil with high moly content to provide lubrication during cold, dry starts. I'm also convinced that FCA chasing CAFE standards by lowering oil viscosity is another cause of failed lifters and cams.

High moly content?
From a Bob is the oil guy post - and this guy is correct -
Moly can be important, but more is NOT better.

Oils with more moly may actually offer lower protection while oils with lower moly levels protect better. It's the whole additive package, not one component.

Viscosity doesn't lubricate. Oil quality and film strength do.
However, in the case of the cam and follower failures on the intakes in the 2016 and later engines, it appears to be assembly issues - incorrect lash adjusters used.

 

[JET_83]

I just use pennzoil platinum 0W-20.

Same here

 

[DanW]

I've posted the engineering info here. I've also worked on and restored starters for decades. Further, the ECU tracks every single thing about that engine as it stops - including which pistons are in which position, which injectors have fired and so on - there's no real load on the starter in an ESS start. The cold starts are killers. The ESS starts hardly have to move the engine at all - and it's warm, so is a fraction of the load. These don't use carbon brushes, they have bearings instead of bushings. They'll handle it. But the hate will continue for sure because non-engineers and non-mechanics love to hate what they don't like (or even understand)

Non engineers? The biggest caution came from an engineer who designed the gen 1 Pentastar. He said the coatings may work, but also may not. He said the jury is out on their ability to mitigate wear and that data he has seen pointed to accelerated bearing wear. I hope, as does he, that he is wrong. But he's a little more qualified to render an objective opinion than anyone Ive heard from or spoken to.

In the meantime, my last UOA did not show elevated aluminum, which is a good sign. My current run with ess disabled will be an interesting comparison when I change it and get a UOA. Both runs for comparison will be on Mobil 1 EP 0W20 and a Fram Ultra filter. My wife's driving patterns are fairly consistent although the season will be different.

He loves the Torque setup and execution, btw. His only concern is accelerated bearing wear. He said ESS is "...hell on the bearings." Again, he hopes the coating does the job but is not optimistic.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Non engineers? The biggest caution came from an engineer who designed the gen 1 Pentastar. He said the coatings may work, but also may not. He said the jury is out on their ability to mitigate wear and that data he has seen pointed to accelerated bearing wear. I hope, as does he, that he is wrong. But he's a little more qualified to render an objective opinion than anyone Ive heard from or spoken to.

In the meantime, my last UOA did not show elevated aluminum, which is a good sign. My current run with ess disabled will be an interesting comparison when I change it and get a UOA. Both runs for comparison will be on Mobil 1 EP 0W20 and a Fram Ultra filter. My wife's driving patterns are fairly consistent although the season will be different.

He loves the Torque setup and execution, btw. His only concern is accelerated bearing wear. He said ESS is "...hell on the bearings." Again, he hopes the coating does the job but is not optimistic.

One engineer designed Gen 1?

The current 3.6 is very different and was heavily modified in ways that end up making it better for ESS.
The oil pump will cause less strain during ESS starts because it's dual-stage, the timing chains are lighter and smoother, so there's less inertia to overcome, the VVL will lesson the stresses of starting as the compression will be lower during warm starts, there's a lot about this version will aid warm starts.

In their testing - Did they actually keep cycling the current version of the 3.6 (2016 and later) using the ESS system, or was it a series of cold starts - or non-ESS starts? The PCM handles ESS starts differently than when you crank it to start it.

Oil is going to be one of the biggest factors. It's the oil's film strength that handles the stresses of starting and ESS starts are not cold starts. They are very very different because the PCM knows exactly where each piston has stopped- it modifies injector signals and ignition for fast low stress starts. Listen closely to an ESS start vs a cold start.
The oil film is only minutes old and if a good oil is used, it will handle it. There will be no metal-to-metal contact, no real chance for wear because the oil film will keep the parts apart.

Hybrids as well as others have used similar systems for years and that's why the industry here was pretty well ready.

The new bearing designs have been working for others for a lot of miles, and years - others have logged a lot of miles, and the instances of bearing failures on the 3.6 is really pretty small, isn't it?
How many here have seen a lot of bearing failures in the Penastar?

I would expect that since these engines have been out for over 6 years, and if the average person drove 12,000 miles a year, you'd have hundreds of thousands of the 3.6 over 70,000 miles, you'd be seeing bearing issues by now.
Interesting also that Chrysler used ESS in 2015 models - before the 3.6 was even updated with new

 

[jwolfejt]

One engineer designed Gen 1?

The current 3.6 is very different and was heavily modified in ways that end up making it better for ESS.
The oil pump will cause less strain during ESS starts because it's dual-stage, the timing chains are lighter and smoother, so there's less inertia to overcome, the VVL will lesson the stresses of starting as the compression will be lower during warm starts, there's a lot about this version will aid warm starts.

In their testing - Did they actually keep cycling the current version of the 3.6 (2016 and later) using the ESS system, or was it a series of cold starts - or non-ESS starts? The PCM handles ESS starts differently than when you crank it to start it.

Oil is going to be one of the biggest factors. It's the oil's film strength that handles the stresses of starting and ESS starts are not cold starts. They are very very different because the PCM knows exactly where each piston has stopped- it modifies injector signals and ignition for fast low stress starts. Listen closely to an ESS start vs a cold start.
The oil film is only minutes old and if a good oil is used, it will handle it. There will be no metal-to-metal contact, no real chance for wear because the oil film will keep the parts apart.

Hybrids as well as others have used similar systems for years and that's why the industry here was pretty well ready.

The new bearing designs have been working for others for a lot of miles, and years - others have logged a lot of miles, and the instances of bearing failures on the 3.6 is really pretty small, isn't it?
How many here have seen a lot of bearing failures in the Penastar?

I would expect that since these engines have been out for over 6 years, and if the average person drove 12,000 miles a year, you'd have hundreds of thousands of the 3.6 over 70,000 miles, you'd be seeing bearing issues by now.
Interesting also that Chrysler used ESS in 2015 models - before the 3.6 was even updated with new

The compression does not change - that is false. Unless your talking about the prototypes that Saab, Nissan and others did with variable compression motors. You can say the intake overlap/duration will change (that would be true) but the 11.2:1 (or whatever it is compression we are running in our stock engines) will NOT change. Cam timing and lift do NOT change compression. If they do then you have a cracked valve or bad valve seal thats causing a leak (which is not good).

 

[Geoarch]

I have 45K on my JT, no problems. I had 125K on my 13 Wrangler when a tree fell on it. I had no issues with either Jeep.

Except that a tree fell on it...

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