3.6 Engine Tick

[ShadowsPapa]

Not to be "picky" - but maybe, yeah, but so maybe people can understand what's what under those valve covers:

Replaced both right side cams, rockers and followers (lifters).

These do not have lifters. Lifters lift - like the old in the block cams of the V8, for example. Those functioned as both lifters because they lifted, and adjusted the lash - took out the play with hydraulic pressure.
These have lash adjusters. They simply sit in bores in the head.
This is an intake lash adjuster. The exhaust lash adjuster does not have the channel for oil for the 2-step rocker (follower)

And from a training/intro guide to the 3.6 ->

The "rocker" is actually a follower, but is still called rocker because it does rock.
On one end it rests on the lash adjuster, the other end rests on the tip of the valve. The cam lobes press down on it and since the lash adjuster doesn't give, the other end rocks down and opens the valve.
So it's a rocker/follower. It follows the cam lobe and rocks to open the valve.

Whoever said automotive cams are electroplated doesn't know how cams are made. They are not plated.
Plating deposits one metal on top of another electrically - in a very thin layer.
They are annealed for some cams depending on the material they are made of, and surface hardened.
Steel cams are case hardened.
Cast iron or ductile iron cams are treated differently.
Some cams have a copper plating on the core between the lobes to prevent the core from being heat treated when the lobes are heat treated (I believe some Comp cams are this way)
Different cams are made in different ways, depending on the purpose, the company whether or not they are roller cams or flat tappet cams, over-head cams and so on. but they aren't plated.
They are heat treated - and that process varies with the material - tool steel, ADI, and so on.

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[ShadowsPapa]

this is not a new problem. its been happening since at least 2014. My 2014 JKU had the same tick that got louder and louder. Went to dealer, all camshafts and all roller rockers were replaced. That was just before warranty ran out. You can not tell me that jeep doesn't know about this. its either a design issue or metal issue from the supplier.

Can't be the exact same issue because the 2014 engine didn't have VVL and it had pure roller followers. The cam was very different, the rockers or followers were not even close to these. Impossible to be the same issue.
The engines prior to the 2016 model year had ROLLER rockers - the bearings in the rollers gave out. Same symptoms, same result as far as you or any other driver/owner was concerned, but it's akin to the issues we have in our legacy V8s -
The roller lifter guys have failures because the needle bearings in the rollers fail..
The flat tappet lifter guys have failures because of other totally and extremely different problems - failure between the bottom of the lifter and the cam lobe.
You are saying that when a person has a fever of 102, it's the same treatment and cause even if one is a cold and the other is covid.

If your 2014 engine failed, it was most likely due to the needle bearings in the ROLLER on the follower.
If these fail, it's a very very very different cause - 99.9% of the time it's not related to any roller or bearing because only the LOW lift side has rollers and bearings. The high lift side is a rubbing contact.

For in-block cams where the builder is using roller lifters, one solution for them is to get rid of the needle bearing rollers and go with bushing rollers.

In short - apples and oranges.
2015 and prior were a very different design and had roller rockers or followers. The rollers failed - the bearings in the rollers failed is a better way to put it.

2016 and later have a dual-mode rocker. The low lift side has rollers and follows two narrow lobes - one on each side of the high lift lobe. Those aren't failing. Low lift works.
The high lift side uses a part in the follower that rubs on the center lobe which is the high lift lobe. THESE are what's failing. It's normally due to the incorrect lash adjuster being used when it was built - no oil pressure to lock it in low lift mode under 2800 rpm so it operates rubbing on the high lift lobe even at idle.
That's what is failing.
the Exhaust side of things is not failing - and the exhaust cams are more like the old 3.6 without VVL. So, in a sense, that in itself proves it's not the same issue, nor the same cause or problem.

Yes, it IS a new problem and whoever came up with that law suite is very engine illiterate and doesn't understand engine design or how these operate. Apples and oranges.
It's a similar symptom, from your seat it seems like the same thing, and for the owner and the shop, they are replacing many of the same parts - but very different root cause.
Gotta look at it forensically, find the root cause.

This explains THESE engines -
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...-roots-supercharger.54832/page-14#post-990691

The 2014 was a very different animal - the ROLLER's bearings failed. The rockers weren't even the same. Different cause.

 

[Advntrbound]

That thing is cut DEEP.
It had to be noisy. I see even the low lift side is scored and worn down a bit.
That one had to be causing trouble as well as the ECU would be expecting different results.
If that was an old flat tappet cam, it would be popping back through the carburetor.
Performance had to suck.

Oddly enough I was getting about 2 mpg better with the noise. Now that its nice, quiet and smooth back to 15.9-16 mpg

 

[Advntrbound]

Not to be "picky" - but maybe, yeah, but so maybe people can understand what's what under those valve covers:



These do not have lifters. Lifters lift - like the old in the block cams of the V8, for example. Those functioned as both lifters because they lifted, and adjusted the lash - took out the play with hydraulic pressure.
These have lash adjusters. They simply sit in bores in the head.
This is an intake lash adjuster. The exhaust lash adjuster does not have the channel for oil for the 2-step rocker (follower)

And from a training/intro guide to the 3.6 ->

The "rocker" is actually a follower, but is still called rocker because it does rock.
On one end it rests on the lash adjuster, the other end rests on the tip of the valve. The cam lobes press down on it and since the lash adjuster doesn't give, the other end rocks down and opens the valve.
So it's a rocker/follower. It follows the cam lobe and rocks to open the valve.

Whoever said automotive cams are electroplated doesn't know how cams are made. They are not plated.
Plating deposits one metal on top of another electrically - in a very thin layer.
They are annealed for some cams depending on the material they are made of, and surface hardened.
Steel cams are case hardened.
Cast iron or ductile iron cams are treated differently.
Some cams have a copper plating on the core between the lobes to prevent the core from being heat treated when the lobes are heat treated (I believe some Comp cams are this way)
Different cams are made in different ways, depending on the purpose, the company whether or not they are roller cams or flat tappet cams, over-head cams and so on. but they aren't plated.
They are heat treated - and that process varies with the material - tool steel, ADI, and so on.

I just used simpler terminology since most people could relate to a lifter or rocker and not cam follower and lash adjustors.

 

[adrnln.JT]

Not to be "picky" and not to start a Internet flame war but lifter is the term the dealership used. :-P

 

[sharpsicle]

Not to be "picky" and not to start a Internet flame war but lifter is the term the dealership used. :-P

How do they plan to replace a component that doesn't exist on the engine? Lifters by definition are not a part of this engine, and you can't just redefine an existing word and pretend it's the same thing. This is akin to them saying "tire tread bad, requires new wheel" when they actually meant "new tire", and everyone pretending 'wheel' and 'tire' are the same thing. They aren't. Anyone reading it would order a new wheel entirely, as that was what they identified as the problem. I know mechanics are notorious for not spelling or using the right words, but all that means is they're still wrong in their reporting.

 

[wayned]

Can't be the exact same issue because the 2014 engine didn't have VVL and it had pure roller followers. The cam was very different, the rockers or followers were not even close to these. Impossible to be the same issue.
The engines prior to the 2016 model year had ROLLER rockers - the bearings in the rollers gave out. Same symptoms, same result as far as you or any other driver/owner was concerned, but it's akin to the issues we have in our legacy V8s -
The roller lifter guys have failures because the needle bearings in the rollers fail..
The flat tappet lifter guys have failures because of other totally and extremely different problems - failure between the bottom of the lifter and the cam lobe.
You are saying that when a person has a fever of 102, it's the same treatment and cause even if one is a cold and the other is covid.

If your 2014 engine failed, it was most likely due to the needle bearings in the ROLLER on the follower.
If these fail, it's a very very very different cause - 99.9% of the time it's not related to any roller or bearing because only the LOW lift side has rollers and bearings. The high lift side is a rubbing contact.

For in-block cams where the builder is using roller lifters, one solution for them is to get rid of the needle bearing rollers and go with bushing rollers.

In short - apples and oranges.
2015 and prior were a very different design and had roller rockers or followers. The rollers failed - the bearings in the rollers failed is a better way to put it.

2016 and later have a dual-mode rocker. The low lift side has rollers and follows two narrow lobes - one on each side of the high lift lobe. Those aren't failing. Low lift works.
The high lift side uses a part in the follower that rubs on the center lobe which is the high lift lobe. THESE are what's failing. It's normally due to the incorrect lash adjuster being used when it was built - no oil pressure to lock it in low lift mode under 2800 rpm so it operates rubbing on the high lift lobe even at idle.
That's what is failing.
the Exhaust side of things is not failing - and the exhaust cams are more like the old 3.6 without VVL. So, in a sense, that in itself proves it's not the same issue, nor the same cause or problem.

Yes, it IS a new problem and whoever came up with that law suite is very engine illiterate and doesn't understand engine design or how these operate. Apples and oranges.
It's a similar symptom, from your seat it seems like the same thing, and for the owner and the shop, they are replacing many of the same parts - but very different root cause.
Gotta look at it forensically, find the root cause.

This explains THESE engines -
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...-roots-supercharger.54832/page-14#post-990691

The 2014 was a very different animal - the ROLLER's bearings failed. The rockers weren't even the same. Different cause.

I will have to respectfully disagree. as a former heavy truck and Chevy tech, I inspected the cam shafts and rockers that were removed and they were scored heavily. And if what your saying is correct, then jeep does have a problem with the design as this happens mostly on the passenger side bank that continues today.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I just used simpler terminology since most people could relate to a lifter or rocker and not cam follower and lash adjustors.

But that then just continues what isn't reality. It's teaching people incorrectly. It's why people believe the issues with a 2014 engine are the same as a 2020 engine, or why people end up with the wrong parts when they go to a parts store (although these days, most parts store staff are 'automotive literate' so I guess it doesn't matter there)

When you go to look something up - you aren't going to find it. Searches will fail - and the search engine will be blamed.

Anyway, as I posted earlier, even the TECH WRITERS and people who document these things haven't yet left the last century........... note the words "more correctly". All they do is adjust or take up lash.

And I see your tech was in the middle of a cattle ranch when he wrote about what he herd.
Well, we all make typos, so I guess that's a pass.

The documents often still use the old terms because they know those in the field haven't caught up - there's still a lot of old-timers out there while the new class that just graduated will be using the new terms. So they tend to interchange terms in documents. (but the note above implies they are trying to teach and train people to the new part nomenclature)

Back on how this design is different, and the part that actually opens the valve - this is also from FCA training materials -

Familiar looking single-lift roller finger followers - the piece that opens the valve, it follows the cam lobe profile.
The reason I bring this up is because the EXHAUST followers in these is the same design that the INTAKE and EXHAUST used prior to 2016. So if you look at a 2020 3.6 exhaust follower, it will be a roller design just like in 2014.
The intake will be totally different design, new, unique for 2016 and later.

This is a 2020 intake follower - same as 2016 and later INTAKE follower -
the trashed center part is the high lift portion. The outer rollers are the low lift portion.
This is how your 2020 and later fail - the center portion of the follower rubs on the cam's middle profile and trashes both cam and follower. When these fail - this is what fails.

This is a 2014 3.6 Pentastar intake follower - Note that the center portion is roller.
The intake and exhaust followers were the same before 2016.

When the 2015 and earlier 3.6 Pentastar followers fail - THIS is how they fail -
The needle bearings get trashed, the pin is cut away (lower right in pic) and they start hammering on the cam.

2020 Pentastar intake follower -

2014 intake follower - (and same design for the exhaust follower in the 2016 and later)

Note that the exhaust follower in the 2020 Pentastar 3.6 is the same design as the intake and exhaust follower in the 2015 and older, so obviously they've fixed the issues with the older engines because they are using those same followers (rockers) for the 2020!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I will have to respectfully disagree. as a former heavy truck and Chevy tech, I inspected the cam shafts and rockers that were removed and they were scored heavily. And if what your saying is correct, then jeep does have a problem with the design as this happens mostly on the passenger side bank that continues today.

See my post just above. Yes, they are scored, but for very different reasons!
The followers aren't even close to the same design.
The symptoms are the same -scored cam lobes.
The reasons are different - look at the 2014 design - it's the BEARINGS that fail, causing follower destruction and cam scoring.
Just because cams score in both version of the 3.6 doesn't mean the root cause is the same.
You saw scoring - but from different causes.

The design issues from 2015 and prior are fixed because they use the same follower design for the EXHAUST today.
What's failing NOW is the intake - totally different reasons!
Both engine versions had follower failures.
Both engine versions had cam destruction.
But the design of the followers is different, and the cause of the failures is different.
The fixed the early design - obviously, because we aren't having numbers of exhaust failures - and the exhaust on these uses the old style followers.

This is the cam problem today - where the high lift part of the follower drags over the center lobe. The outer two low lift parts of the cam where the ROLLERS follow are fine -

Rollers are ok - high lift area shot -

Old style failed differently - the cam was still scored, but it was the BEARINGS in the rollers that gave out on your 3.6 before 2016 -

Proof? Here it is -

DIFFERENT design, DIFFERENT failure CAUSE. Similar result - wiped cam. That's the only thing they have in common. So no, it's not the same design flaw or cause.

 

[wayned]

regardless of the parts failing, or what they are called, they are failing, which they shouldn't. a redesign obviously didn't help........ as this is happening to the 3.6 way to often and generally on the passenger bank. Which would indicate a design flaw. A flaw that keep rearing its ugly head.

 

[Riccochet]

I'm no genius, but the high lift follower failure looks like either a poor heat treatment on the part, or poor oiling of the cam. Or even poor shear strength on the oil. Once you wear past the surface heat treat on the follower it's game over. Softer steel underneath and it just disintegrates taking the cam lobe with it.

Either way, it's nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. These are common failures across many engine platforms from every manufacturer for as long as engines have been built. GM is having a hell of a time with their L84 and L87 lately. I just think we're seeing it more and more as manufacturers move to lighter weight oils. But that's just my opinion.

 

[rmnpjunky]

I just got a tick in the last month and its getting worse. I hear it at slower speeds and the sound goes away sometimes. Yesterday I hit a bump in the road and it went away for a couple seconds then came back. Any thoughts? 2020 LE with 52k on motor

camshaft ...

 

[jwolfejt]

FWIW - this is what mine sounds like (just hit 7500 miles). I did my first oil change @ 700 miles, than 3700 then 6700 miles (every vehicle i've had has had 3k mile oil changes and I've never had issues with them - some may say overkill - but I've had good luck). It sounds totally normal to me (and has sounded this way since day 1). The WK2 I had sounded the same as well. Whatever chatter there is sounds like normal fuel injector cycles to me.

 

[DAVECS1]

This is the gift that keeps on giving, couple things to add.

Another possible reason this fails and may fail again after being fixed; the engine has two VVL solenoids on each side. The passenger side is the first to be supplied with oil from the oil filter/sump. If these get clogged, they will not supply the oil pressure needed to engage the high lift lock cam. This will allow the high lift portion of the rocker to bounce around and chatter. There is no pressure sensor or diagnostic to tell you this solenoid is clogged and not supplying oil. If you have chatter that comes and goes, I would replace rhe solenoids ASAP.

Part 2. If you unknowingly ran on a cam going flat for a while, be prepared to replace the catalytic converter on that side of the engine. The engine will trim back fuel in steady state, but your acceleration enrichment and over run fuel are not adaptive, and they get dumped into the catalytic converter. If your real lucky, when the problem is fixed, that side of the engine will run lean for a few days igniting the unburnt fuel all over the catalyst and make a nice gloomy mess of it in a hurry. This will result in jumpy takes offs, hesitation, and a general reluctance of rhe engine wanting to Rev past 5K.

Last but not least, the ground down components are hardened tool steel and ductile iron. The followers are iron in an aluminum bore. The fine powdered metal oil gets in that bore and does a nice job honing it out and making it just big enough, so followers start getting jammed up because they get cocked in the bore. This could rectify itself by hitting a big bump or a heavy vibration to the engine. This powdered slurry also works great to coat the magnetic position sensor and phaser for the cams. The results in slow to incorrect cam positions all the time, that can cause momentary misfire, bad fuel mileage, and general power delivery issues, that are impossible to sort out until you take the valve cover off and witness , the silvery surprise.

Sorry to be such a Debbie downer. I am living the 3.6 life.

 

[jwolfejt]

This is the gift that keeps on giving, couple things to add.

Another possible reason this fails and may fail again after being fixed; the engine has two VVL solenoids on each side. The passenger side is the first to be supplied with oil from the oil filter/sump. If these get clogged, they will not supply the oil pressure needed to engage the high lift lock cam. This will allow the high lift portion of the rocker to bounce around and chatter. There is no pressure sensor or diagnostic to tell you this solenoid is clogged and not supplying oil. If you have chatter that comes and goes, I would replace rhe solenoids ASAP.

Part 2. If you unknowingly ran on a cam going flat for a while, be prepared to replace the catalytic converter on that side of the engine. The engine will trim back fuel in steady state, but your acceleration enrichment and over run fuel are not adaptive, and they get dumped into the catalytic converter. If your real lucky, when the problem is fixed, that side of the engine will run lean for a few days igniting the unburnt fuel all over the catalyst and make a nice gloomy mess of it in a hurry. This will result in jumpy takes offs, hesitation, and a general reluctance of rhe engine wanting to Rev past 5K.

Last but not least, the ground down components are hardened tool steel and ductile iron. The followers are iron in an aluminum bore. The fine powdered metal oil gets in that bore and does a nice job honing it out and making it just big enough, so followers start getting jammed up because they get cocked in the bore. This could rectify itself by hitting a big bump or a heavy vibration to the engine. This powdered slurry also works great to coat the magnetic position sensor and phaser for the cams. The results in slow to incorrect cam positions all the time, that can cause momentary misfire, bad fuel mileage, and general power delivery issues, that are impossible to sort out until you take the valve cover off and witness , the silvery surprise.

Sorry to be such a Debbie downer. I am living the 3.6 life.

Do you think that https://www.baxterperformanceusa.com/product/ms-201-bk-cartridge-to-spin-on-adapter/ would help ? I am pretty baffled as it seems to be a mixed bag - some people swear by the 3.6 , others have issues. I specifically recall meeting a guy who had well north of 200k miles (can't recall the exact figure) on his Ram 1500 and would not buy a Hemi because of "the hemi tick" makes me wonder if he ended up with a ticker in the 3.6 instead lol. With the Hemi's (especially the MDS engines) lifter failures and ground up cams are pretty well cited issues. Then you have guys with the 3/4 ton trucks running the 6.4/392 that swear by them as well (with 100s of thousands of miles) is it luck of the draw? I realize that back in the day Mopar parts were known for having inconsistent castings. I just find it odd that some people can make it well past 150k miles - others have issues below 20k and need a top end rebuild.

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