3.6 Penstar Poll!

[ShadowsPapa]

Obviously it's just tuning since we have the same intake manifold, heads and cams as the RAM 1500.

I'm curious - are the cam part numbers the same?

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[Hootbro]

I wish it had 305HP like in the RAM 1500 version. Obviously it's just tuning since we have the same intake manifold, heads and cams as the RAM 1500.

Comes down to the ability to cool for the reason the Gladiator and Wrangler Pentastars are detuned in this platform. RAM has a lot more grille frontal area to play with.

 

[jwolfejt]

Comes down to the ability to cool for the reason the Gladiator and Wrangler Pentastars are detuned in this platform. RAM has a lot more grille frontal area to play with.

Personally - i just wish they had more low end tq - or Jeep offered a good diesel with bottom end grunt - shoot -i'd take something like a cummins r2.8 in a gladiator - however with all the emissions crap they strap onto modern diesels i am not sure I would.

 

[oldironsights]

The 3.6 Pentastar is my first V6.
Never been a fan of the V6, nut this one impresses me with it's smooth power delivery, & fuel economy .
Always preferred four & six cylinder inline engines & small V8's for small & midsize vehicles.
Big (Think 460) V8's for the larger trucks.
Diesels are another story with love & hate depending on what diesel & what year.
Luv my old school Kubota diesel...........................no restrictive tier4 stuff on it.

 

[Stan H]

I know with the livernoirs tunes it actual bumps it up above that 305 realm of Horsepower. This begs the question if they are bumping the power up how are they cooling it ? With increased cooling fan cycles?? It would seem to me that would have to be ticketed with.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I know with the livernoirs tunes it actual bumps it up above that 305 realm of Horsepower. This begs the question if they are bumping the power up how are they cooling it ? With increased cooling fan cycles?? It would seem to me that would have to be ticketed with.

It would only matter if towing or under a load. Otherwise for normal use, the system would cool it fine.
Using that HP for an extended period, such as towing and so on, would require some mods to cooling. But for ordinary, even spirited driving, it shouldn't matter.
I've got a heck of a lot more HP in my 73 - with a stock cooling system.

 

[Stan H]

There seem to be other ways to decrease heat in thd engine bay .
Removal of the hood blanket , a working hood vent. The top engine cover ( lack the nomenclature on that part.) All seem to be ways of moving heat out as the air comes in the front and up underneath. I always felt like much heat is kept up inside that engine bay that if more rapidly removed would be well served.

 

[oldironsights]

I always felt like much heat is kept up inside that engine bay that if more rapidly removed would be well served.

Water removes more heat than air.
Larger radiator, larger hoses, higher capacity water pump...........................

 

[ShadowsPapa]

There seem to be other ways to decrease heat in thd engine bay .
Removal of the hood blanket , a working hood vent. The top engine cover ( lack the nomenclature on that part.) All seem to be ways of moving heat out as the air comes in the front and up underneath. I always felt like much heat is kept up inside that engine bay that if more rapidly removed would be well served.

The hood "blanket" isn't really going to cool it - most of the air is actually supposed to go down and out under the vehicle.

Water removes more heat than air.
Larger radiator, larger hoses, higher capacity water pump...........................

Good luck with that on these.............
i'd also bet we are at the point of diminishing returns on water flow. You reach a point where shoving more water through doesn't do anything for you.

 

[Charles 236]

It is possible to reach a point of diminishing returns in cooling systems. I had a '69 Dodge running the 440 Six Pack and 4.30 gears, and I used a 2 core radiator, instead of the stock 3 core. I also ran a 185° thermostat instead of the then popular 160° unit. It ran a steady 185 to 190° no matter how hot it got, and I live in the humid, hot southeast. I had so much fun driving it that I drove it far more through the summer than I thought I would. Didn't want to drive it in the winter, no heater core (the housing was still there).

The car was never meant to be a daily driver, just a car that I could drive to the track, clean house, and drive home without having to raise the hood, but I scienced it out, using tricks that wouldn't be caught if it was inspected by a fellow racer .The 2 core radiator saved several pounds on the front end versus a 3 core, I ran an aluminum single point Chrysler distributor instead of the stock cast iron dual point, and I ran 10 inch front drum brakes instead of stock 11 inch drums. If the NHRA had inspected it, the car wouldn't pass for stock, but other guys at the strip (or on the street) were less likely to catch what I did.

Back to the point, many years later a friend had a 440 'Cuda that he was worried about keeping cool. He ran a cool thermostat and 5 core radiator (not a misprint, he had a 5 core radiator custom made.) I drove it a few days and dialed it in for him, and found that it too ran about 190°. He spent a lot of effort, and money, to find that point of diminishing returns.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It is possible to reach a point of diminishing returns in cooling systems. I had a '69 Dodge running the 440 Six Pack and 4.30 gears, and I used a 2 core radiator, instead of the stock 3 core. I also ran a 185° thermostat instead of the then popular 160° unit. It ran a steady 185 to 190° no matter how hot it got, and I live in the humid, hot southeast. I had so much fun driving it that I drove it far more through the summer than I thought I would. Didn't want to drive it in the winter, no heater core (the housing was still there).

The car was never meant to be a daily driver, just a car that I could drive to the track, clean house, and drive home without having to raise the hood, but I scienced it out, using tricks that wouldn't be caught if it was inspected by a fellow racer .The 2 core radiator saved several pounds on the front end versus a 3 core, I ran an aluminum single point Chrysler distributor instead of the stock cast iron dual point, and I ran 10 inch front drum brakes instead of stock 11 inch drums. If the NHRA had inspected it, the car wouldn't pass for stock, but other guys at the strip (or on the street) were less likely to catch what I did.

Back to the point, many years later a friend had a 440 'Cuda that he was worried about keeping cool. He ran a cool thermostat and 5 core radiator (not a misprint, he had a 5 core radiator custom made.) I drove it a few days and dialed it in for him, and found that it too ran about 190°. He spent a lot of effort, and money, to find that point of diminishing returns.

There's multiple issues with increasing radiator size - you may be adding more rows to the core, but then you have to keep up the air flow through that now thicker core due to the added row. As the air passes each successive row of tubes in the core, it picks up heat - once it gets back a couple of rows or so, the air is pretty hot and doesn't pick up nearly as much energy. By the time you get out to say, 4 or so rows in that core, the air has already picked up as much heat as it's going to, and, you've restricted the air flow farther, slowing the air down, regardless of the fan size, shape and speed.
A water pump moving more water will run into similar issues - if it runs too much too fast, the air can't have enough time to absorb the heat energy from the water, so it won't cool down as efficiently. High flow water pumps have limits. Coolant has to pick up heat energy from the engine, and, it must transfer it back to the air out front. Moving too fast, it can't do either.
But people believe they can out engineer engineers...............oh, just put in a bigger radiator, or a bigger water pump, or whatever.

 

[Stan H]

There's multiple issues with increasing radiator size - you may be adding more rows to the core, but then you have to keep up the air flow through that now thicker core due to the added row. As the air passes each successive row of tubes in the core, it picks up heat - once it gets back a couple of rows or so, the air is pretty hot and doesn't pick up nearly as much energy. By the time you get out to say, 4 or so rows in that core, the air has already picked up as much heat as it's going to, and, you've restricted the air flow farther, slowing the air down, regardless of the fan size, shape and speed.
A water pump moving more water will run into similar issues - if it runs too much too fast, the air can't have enough time to absorb the heat energy from the water, so it won't cool down as efficiently. High flow water pumps have limits. Coolant has to pick up heat energy from the engine, and, it must transfer it back to the air out front. Moving too fast, it can't do either.
But people believe they can out engineer engineers...............oh, just put in a bigger radiator, or a bigger water pump, or whatever.

Most definitely for an off road application air is not going to move steady through that grill..On road driving at speed is going to help. To me one if the best aftermarket features I have seen is this :
http://www.rpmextreme.com/Product/311/Jeep-JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER.aspx

 

[Charles 236]

There's multiple issues with increasing radiator size - you may be adding more rows to the core, but then you have to keep up the air flow through that now thicker core due to the added row. As the air passes each successive row of tubes in the core, it picks up heat - once it gets back a couple of rows or so, the air is pretty hot and doesn't pick up nearly as much energy. By the time you get out to say, 4 or so rows in that core, the air has already picked up as much heat as it's going to, and, you've restricted the air flow farther, slowing the air down, regardless of the fan size, shape and speed.
A water pump moving more water will run into similar issues - if it runs too much too fast, the air can't have enough time to absorb the heat energy from the water, so it won't cool down as efficiently. High flow water pumps have limits. Coolant has to pick up heat energy from the engine, and, it must transfer it back to the air out front. Moving too fast, it can't do either.
But people believe they can out engineer engineers...............oh, just put in a bigger radiator, or a bigger water pump, or whatever.

Exactly my point about the 5 core radiator, he didn't realize that the Delta T changes (is reduced substantially) at each additional core. But I doubt if he would have even understood Delta T as a term, he just went with bigger is better.

 

[Stan H]

Exactly my point about the 5 core radiator, he didn't realize that the Delta T changes (is reduced substantially) at each additional core. But I doubt if he would have even understood Delta T as a term, he just went with bigger is better.

I started out with a lot of older models also and many came with solid fans. I know several guys who removed that solid fans and added dual electric fans ( back in 80's and 90's . Take our jeeps for example where are ya gonna put more fan ? I personally think the kick in on these fans should be lower than 230°
Whats a good temp maybe 220-225. Why cause if your climbing hard & steep & spinning the temp will easily climb to 230 and often over shoot that 230 even as the fan is kicking in . Only time I see as issue is in that scenario. It does however pull it back down .

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Most definitely for an off road application air is not going to move steady through that grill..On road driving at speed is going to help. To me one if the best aftermarket features I have seen is this :
http://www.rpmextreme.com/Product/311/Jeep-JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER.aspx

Either turn the AC on, or simply wait for the engineered controller to kick the fan into high. People tend to freak out over the numbers because you can see them now, before it was just a gauge usually with no numbers. Oh, wow, water boils at 212 and I'm running 225! To that, I generally say "so?"
Thousands of Jeep engines of all shapes and sizes have operated in the temperatures people are now worried about - and they've all survived fine.
Did you know that the specs for a 195 thermostat for a 1980s engine say it doesn't fully open until about 225 degrees? So you don't even have full water flow until 225 degrees (I believe some go up to 227 before fully open).

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