am I doing something wrong in snow/ice Winter driving?

[ShadowsPapa]

I'm running a set of JL Rubicon take-offs (with KO2s) as winters on my Selec-Trac equipped JT Mojave. It is great in the snow on-road.

Next set of tires for the JT, when the Generals wear out, my plan is to compare the then current offerings of the General A/Tx tires to the KO2s (or whatever they have at that time) and yours adds to the positive comments I've seen on those tires in snow and yuck.
Road noise will be a very close 2nd to the performance in snow/ice/wet. My wife comes from a long line of Grand Cherokees and I don't dare add road noise to any of our vehicles. Surprisingly, the JLU isn't really that bad - not as bad as I expected, anyway.

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[Sting-Gray Neutral Pres.]

Yeah, it's still called RockTrac on the Rubicon, and it's lockers and not LSD on the Rubicon, sorry to say in our case.
I would trade the locking axles under our JLUR for a setup with LSD any day.
But there's still no LSD on the Rubicon even with Rock-Trac Automatic transfer cases. Lockers only.

The Selec-Trac with LSD under my JT Overland makes it a snow plowing demon.

That's a bummer, because it's technically feasible to have both a LSD and a mechanical locker in the same differential.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That's a bummer, because it's technically feasible to have both a LSD and a mechanical locker in the same differential.

If there's a way on these, I might be interested............. I've not personally done it. i've only installed lockers (on our wreckers in the 1980s) or worked with various LSDs, but never both in the same unit so I have no personal experience.
The lockers in our Wrangler Rubicon will never be used - that switch will stay forever clean and perfect, but I've ordered LSD in every vehicle I've ordered for decades and wish this JLU had it.

 

[Sting-Gray Neutral Pres.]

If there's a way on these, I might be interested............. I've not personally done it. i've only installed lockers (on our wreckers in the 1980s) or worked with various LSDs, but never both in the same unit so I have no personal experience.
The lockers in our Wrangler Rubicon will never be used - that switch will stay forever clean and perfect, but I've ordered LSD in every vehicle I've ordered for decades and wish this JLU had it.

I can't find an off the shelf solution for a Jeep but I know these exist in other applications. What I did find with 3 minutes of searching is a Yukon Gear LSD you can swap into your Rubicon for $600 and a lot of elbow grease.
https://www.yukongear.com/shop/yc-dm220-32-tl

They make one for the narrower axles too for anyone (like OP) that currently has an open rear differential and wants to enhance winter and wet pavement traction

 

[Jobofly]

Different transfer case, different front axles (with CV joints instead of cross-type u-joints)
The SelecTrac is a rather complex animal in some ways as far as how it's controlled by the electronics..
The CV joints up front smooth out the tight turners in 4H.
It's a lot nicer plowing with it, that's for sure, especially in really tight areas like I have to deal with where I need the truck to turn as tight as possible and still be in 4 wheel drive, be nimble, but sure-footed.


Years ago my first father-in-law demonstrated how it could help by deliberately making their IH slide a bit, then applied throttle and there was just enough grip on the front tires on the ice it pulled that IH straight again.
There are times nothing can help, but it does make it easier to go up ice.
I've proven it here as well, after an ice storm. The photos of my driveway are around here somewhere - it's all up hill from the time you leave the approach immediately in front of the garage - it's enough up hill that many people can't get out when it's icy.
I've had times with my 2020 that the only time I could get up out of our driveway was in 4 wheel drive. Weight on the rear didn't matter.
Stopping is another animal, though.
And the temperature of the ice really matters a lot! Ice at 30 degrees is slippery as puppy poop or baby snot. Ice at 0 gives you some grip. So ice isn't ice isn't ice. Temperature matters.
i'll never forget the day I had our 84 Eagle in town running a couple of errands for my wife - who took a part time job off the farm in the winter. I ran into town, pulled into a lady's driveway, delivered a package, got in the car, backed out of the car onto the street, came to a full stop and all of a sudden it felt as if I'd had a few too many. I wasn't moving, and yet I was.
Car was full stop, foot firmly on the brakes, and there was enough crown to the road that the car slid very slowly sideways onto the shoulder. I put it in drive and drove away ok, but there was a case of ice in the upper 20s or around 30 being so slippery and even a stationary object would slide on a slight slope.


Yeah, it's still called RockTrac on the Rubicon, and it's lockers and not LSD on the Rubicon, sorry to say in our case.
I would trade the locking axles under our JLUR for a setup with LSD any day.
But there's still no LSD on the Rubicon even with Rock-Trac Automatic transfer cases. Lockers only.

The Selec-Trac with LSD under my JT Overland makes it a snow plowing demon.

Is it possible to replace the U joints with CV joints if you dont have selec trac?

 

[bucolic]

This is where I love SelecTrac.
CV axles, no binding or jerking when you are making turns or parking.

Around here if you aren't in 4H when at a stop, you may not get going again. It's that simple. I've seen a whole lot of both front and rear wheel drive cars and so-called "SUVs" struggle in these last several days. Hundreds of them off the road.
I went with SelecTrac because my 2020 with only 4H and not 4H auto was a pain in the butt - you were constantly shifting in and out, in and out, then you hit a patch of black ice, or snow pack, or where the snow is blowing across the highway and just deep enough to want to pull things to the side........... I recall one trip with my '20 where I shifted it in and out of 4H over a dozen times - it would hum and bind in 4H when i hit the dry spots so I'd pull it out into 2 thinking cool, there's a mile of clear, only to run into another area of snow blown across I80.

You need to just deal with shifting in and out if you don't have the 4H auto transfer case.
And those who have argued have obviously never driven in the types of snow or conditions we get here. Different snow types, winds and so on........ spots on the interstate where if you were not in 4H you were not going to make it up that hill and across that bridge (and I'm' talking speeds of only 45-50 because that was the prevailing traffic speeds at that time). I watched others fail to make it through the same places I did. I had my '20 fishtail and slide all over on our snow pack (with Rubicon take-off Falken tires, too) unless I was in 4H. Then - I'd hit a mile of clear and had to take it out again or she'd bind up.

I've had pickups and have driven thousands of miles over the decades in Iowa winters. My first truck I was something like 18 or 19, have had a truck ever since with the exception of a couple of years in the 1990s. 2 wheel drive, 4 wheel drive, Fords, Chevy, Jeep, and you'll never pry the SelecTrac outta my hands. It's very similar to how my Silverado was - in bad weather, you'd put it in 4H auto and forget it.

I have 210 pounds of sand at the very rear of my truck bed to offset the 300+ pounds of snow plow but even when I drop the plow off, I can feel better stability.

Yeah, the 4-wheel drive on my Jeep Gladiator takes me back to the 70's 4 wheel-drive trucks! Constantly shifting in and out when the conditions are mixed snow and dry areas.

This type of system was actually a HUGE step up in the '70s, as you didn't have to get in and out to lock in the hubs, so it could be worse! You'd get out in the snow, lock in the hubs, get out of the driveway on the dry road and climb back out and unlock the hubs. Get to work with the snow covered lot climb out lock the hubs back in.

The SelectTrac does solve this issue and is similar to my GMC pickup where you just press a button to go in and out of 4 wheel drive and you can select the auto mode and drive it all the time in it.

On a side note @ShadowsPapa, is the standard 4-wheel drive I and the OP have a sturdier system than the select Trac for serious off-roaders. Just curious if it is more rugged. It sure feels it when I have to pull with both hands to get it in 4-wheel LOL.

 

[InvertedLogic]

RE: Jerking while turning. You have discovered one of the tradeoffs of a part-time 4x4 system. Every part time 4x4 does it. The front and rear driveshafts are mechanically locked together in 4H whereas in a full-time awd system the front and rear driveshafts are allowed to spin at different rates.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

On a side note @ShadowsPapa, is the standard 4-wheel drive I and the OP have a sturdier system than the select Trac for serious off-roaders. Just curious if it is more rugged. It sure feels it when I have to pull with both hands to get it in 4-wheel LOL.

I have a heck of a time shifting into plain 2H and 4L - I have to hold my face just right, cross two toes on my right foot, sing yankee doodle, put it in neutral, then shift the transfer case after saying please 5 times.
I was pulling someone out of the snow last week and needed total throttle control on the ice and snow pack and wanted 4L and I had to really work for it. Even taking it back out was some effort.
Only 4H auto is easy to get into and out of, the rest match my 2020 in shifting difficulty with this one being just a tad harder going into 4L

Is it possible to replace the U joints with CV joints if you dont have selec trac?

I'm sure someone here has done that - I seem to recall reading about that project here.

People moan that the CV joint is weaker - that's not technically true. It's actually stronger. It's the care you need to take of them, and the boots. You must keep any dust, dirt or grime out and if there's a compromised seal, you need to take care of it right away.
But for strength - it's been proven with tests applying torque at various angles, while at 0 degrees they are roughly the same, but start adding any angle and the standard joint is weaker.
The CV joint will handle more torque and more torque at greater angles than a standard joint can handle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

RE: Jerking while turning. You have discovered one of the tradeoffs of a part-time 4x4 system. Every part time 4x4 does it. The front and rear driveshafts are mechanically locked together in 4H whereas in a full-time awd system the front and rear driveshafts are allowed to spin at different rates.

It's also the effect of the u-joint vs. CV joint. As shown, there's an oscillating effect when the standard u-joint isn't straight and the less straight it is, the more severe the effect is - to the point of JERKING the wheel.
With a front and a rear wheel on snow or ice, the lockup effect of the transfer case won't matter because the speed differences between the two shafts (front and rear driveshaft) are allowed to equalize. At that point, it's the joints up front.
I can prove that with my own JT - taking off heavy throttle from a stop, the clutch pack is pretty much locked up - yet there's no jerking.
We also see that effect on cars like mine - front axles have CV joints and run at pretty severe angles and yet - no shuddering at all under load. Even when guys with these cars put in a Jeep transfer case with low-lock, they won't get a shudder thanks to the CV joints.
I get no shudder at all plowing, even on partial dry pavement when mostly done, and wheels cranked to either stop. Transfer case is locked but it's smooth.
Put CV joints up there and the shuddering all but disappears (I say all but because if the pavement is totally dry, there's going to be some binding due to no wheel slippage.)

My truck in 4L won't shudder even though for all intents and purposes, it's the same as the non-SelecTrac transfer case at that point - front and rear locked together.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

I can't find an off the shelf solution for a Jeep but I know these exist in other applications. What I did find with 3 minutes of searching is a Yukon Gear LSD you can swap into your Rubicon for $600 and a lot of elbow grease.
https://www.yukongear.com/shop/yc-dm220-32-tl

They make one for the narrower axles too for anyone (like OP) that currently has an open rear differential and wants to enhance winter and wet pavement traction

There is the Auburn ECTED, but I don't think they make it for the Advantek D44. It uses clutches for lockup, doesn't seem like a good design to me. It's not very popular.

There used to be the Detroit Electrac. Didn't last long. Had a big actuator hanging outside the diff cover.

The TJ Rubicons used a LSD/locker combo in the rear. That diff was made by TFS who was later acquired by GKN.

But I don't know of anyone who currently makes a LSD/locker for the Advantek D44.

Is it possible to replace the U joints with CV joints if you dont have selec trac?

Yes, RCV makes axle shafts with CVs.

https://www.rcvperformance.com/axle...4Zs3CWglpID489fQqp410SuqLF1TkAyBoCp_0QAvD_BwE

 

[OHJeeper]

That's a bummer, because it's technically feasible to have both a LSD and a mechanical locker in the same differential.

I know it's not LSD, but the Rubicon does have BLD (not really a differential feature, I know, but for some reason they still call it BLD) which is better than just an open diff by itself.

 

[Sweetums]

This is the first significant snow/ice since getting the gladiator - it's all stock standard mojave, and this isn't about the tires, Falken Wildpeak ATs.

I've driven these same roads no issue in similar conditions in previous vehicles. Sealed surface, fun and windy with sections unplowed, unsalted, salted, salted/plowed. I have only needed to use 4H/4L on soft gravel a few times.

Driving in 4H seems like the appropriate choice for mixed snow/ice... but anything short of the slightest turn seemed like the wheels were dragging laterally and without power steering. (as opposed to expected heavy load). This is all driving at low speed. Trying to maneuver for parking was a nightmare.

Driving in 2H was a delicate endeavor, frequent loss of traction but at least I could make a regular turn at the stop signs and sharper corners. Again, driving at low speed.

Any advice, suggestions, recommendations?

As others have said, the jerking/sliding feeling is the tires letting go to release driveline binding. I found running RWD is just fine in most snow conditions if you have good tires. AWD allows slippage between the axles and wheels, so you never feel that binding that is released by slipping tires.

Basically, what you are feeling is normal for a 4WD system on snow when the tires are actually hooking up.

Remember: RWD causes oversteer, meaning the back wants to come around. You will hit the tree with the side or rear of the vehicle.
FWD causes understeer, the wheels plow forward and you hit the tree with the front bumper.
4WD and AWD try to do both at the same time, resulting in a twitchy feeling.

I personally prefer RWD because I can use the throttle to get the rear around and point the nose where I want. I will switch to 4WD only when I can't get going in RWD.

 

[Ryan...]

Depends on the Land Rover. I've owned 4 of them, and they all kinda sucked on-road in the snow. But, in their defense, they were 1963, 1969, 1971, and 1974.

That's fair, I should have specified lol

I miss my '13 LR4 quite a bit, thing was an unstoppable tank

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Depends on the Land Rover. I've owned 4 of them, and they all kinda sucked on-road in the snow. But, in their defense, they were 1963, 1969, 1971, and 1974.

There's an article from a year or two ago where a Grand Cherokee was pitted against Land Rover.
Jeep won.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As others have said, the jerking/sliding feeling is the tires letting go to release driveline binding. I found running RWD is just fine in most snow conditions if you have good tires. AWD allows slippage between the axles and wheels, so you never feel that binding that is released by slipping tires.

Basically, what you are feeling is normal for a 4WD system on snow when the tires are actually hooking up.

Remember: RWD causes oversteer, meaning the back wants to come around. You will hit the tree with the side or rear of the vehicle.
FWD causes understeer, the wheels plow forward and you hit the tree with the front bumper.
4WD and AWD try to do both at the same time, resulting in a twitchy feeling.

I personally prefer RWD because I can use the throttle to get the rear around and point the nose where I want. I will switch to 4WD only when I can't get going in RWD.

Swap in CVs and I'll bet you get rid of almost all of that "jerking and bouncing".

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