Bent Frame - Part Deux

[sharpsicle]

I believe that applies to everyone saying these frames will bend because he had 700 pounds in the bed, show me those numbers. I'm saying that if this stuff is AHSS and High Strength Steel, those numbers are a lot higher than just oops i drove down a dirt road overloaded. My point was that the force to bend these frames would have other damage, no way he bent that frame and thats all the damage he took.

Photographic evidence to the contrary of your statement has been given. To continue with your assertion, we are asking for more information, but you are not being forthcoming. So the choices here are to go with what's been shown to have already occurred on other vehicles, or believe your statement that has no backing. This is the problem you've created for yourself here.

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[bleda2002]

Photographic evidence to the contrary of your statement has been given. To continue with your assertion, we are asking for more information, but you are not being forthcoming. So the choices here are to go with what's been shown to have already occurred on other vehicles, or believe your statement that has no backing. This is the problem you've created for yourself here.

Please show me where I claimed there was HIGH SPEED STEEL in the frame lol. Shadow read HSS and assumed I meant either high speed steel or hollow structural steel, next post I said HIGH STRENGTH STEEL to clarify.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I believe that applies to everyone saying these frames will bend because he had 700 pounds in the bed, show me those numbers. I'm saying that if this stuff is AHSS and High Strength Steel, those numbers are a lot higher than just oops i drove down a dirt road overloaded. My point was that the force to bend these frames would have other damage, no way he bent that frame and thats all the damage he took.

He had a lot more weight and he had weight behind the bumper. 100 pounds BEHIND the bumper as in a tire carrier is worse than the same thing in the bed because it's a couple of feet farther back from the fulcrum area (shocks for example - and where that crumple point is in the frame)
And yes, look at the YT videos out there, you CAN bend a frame and not do other damage. It's a fact. You say it can't happen and yet there's photographic proof it has happened. You say these can't bend and yet there's photos of them bending.
That YT video gave PICTURES of the frame damage and no other damage. Science.
There's proof all over the internet that frames can be bent with NO body damage, no broken suspension parts.
I've given the formula that also shows how it's possible, the man who had his engineer friends on his video showed how it's possible there's a ton of evidence out there.
Apparently you don't believe engineers/college educated folks with experience, etc.

 

[aceisback]

? much better thread than the first one...

Still a three way going on though. Keeps going round in circles…

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Still a three way going on though. Keeps going round in circles…

Make it 1 or 2. I give up. I have science, machinery's handbooks, google and experience explaining how it's possible and how these are made and it doesn't matter. Now we're stuck on the def of hss even though I posted a picture of google and wikipedia showing the results. I give up.

 

[bleda2002]

He had a lot more weight and he had weight behind the bumper. 100 pounds BEHIND the bumper as in a tire carrier is worse than the same thing in the bed because it's a couple of feet farther back from the fulcrum area (shocks for example - and where that crumple point is in the frame)
And yes, look at the YT videos out there, you CAN bend a frame and not do other damage. It's a fact. You say it can't happen and yet there's photographic proof it has happened. You say these can't bend and yet there's photos of them bending.
That YT video gave PICTURES of the frame damage and no other damage. Science.
There's proof all over the internet that frames can be bent with NO body damage, no broken suspension parts.
I've given the formula that also shows how it's possible, the man who had his engineer friends on his video showed how it's possible there's a ton of evidence out there.
Apparently you don't believe engineers/college educated folks with experience, etc.

Alot of stuff is possible, but is highly improbable. The ides that the steel bump stop cups took NO damage while the frame bent, or the bump stops on the axle took NO damage while the frame bent is just pretty improbable. On raptors this same damage always resulted in the bump stop cups being wrecked. The frame would have to be the weakest point here for there to be no damage to anything else, again possible but seems highly improbable.

 

[sharpsicle]

Please show me where I claimed there was HIGH SPEED STEEL in the frame lol. Shadow read HSS and assumed I meant either high speed steel or hollow structural steel, next post I said HIGH STRENGTH STEEL to clarify.

Wow. I even let go of this point and you can't move on from it?

I'm not saying your necessarily wrong. I'm saying you have absolutely nothing here that helps anyone.

How someone defines HSS is not the hill to die on here. Because not matter how you define it, there's nothing usable in these posts!

Let that go!

The statement I was referring to was

I'm saying that if this stuff is AHSS and High Strength Steel, those numbers are a lot higher than just oops i drove down a dirt road overloaded.

The photos of bent frames from driving trails overloaded. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything you've said about HSS. It's not all about you.

 

[Davekayc]

I carry a motorcycle in my hitch and do 80+ miles an hour. I sense no flex in The frame. I pulled a 7x15 cargo trailer . Sense no flex . Pull a 16foot boat , none. . Haul a heap of wet firewood. Max payload. No flex . Articulate fully with 37s on and only get 1/4 “ of twist in the frame max. The frames are impressive. Scrapes on the hitch are obviously of no concern.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Alot of stuff is possible, but is highly improbable. The ides that the steel bump stop cups took NO damage while the frame bent, or the bump stops on the axle took NO damage while the frame bent is just pretty improbable. On raptors this same damage always resulted in the bump stop cups being wrecked. The frame would have to be the weakest point here for there to be no damage to anything else, again possible but seems highly improbable.

Let me run this by you - the work of the shock absorber is to slow motions, absorb impacts. What happens if you slam a load on a normally working shock? Not compress it by leaning on the truck or putting weight on it, but smacking it hard? The oil has to go through small controlled holes - and can't do it fast. So in effect, if the load comes down hard enough, the shock becomes more like a solid object. How fast can you compress a shock absorber? Can you make it compress in 1 second? 2 seconds? Or do these work in a way that the faster and harder they are hit, the more quickly they collapse? Is there a bypass that opens under xx psi of force allowing a shock to go from fully expanded to compressed in 1 or 2 seconds?
I know the old Monroe shock testing thing we used to have - you could not shove down on the handle hard and fast and get the shock to collapse. Maybe these are different? I know they have to work fairly quickly or your axle will leave the road on a washboard road.............. but how fast?
I ask because on engineer said the shock area was the fulcrum area - and that makes sense so the bump stop may not have been hit if that were the case.

Overland may be very different - but the stops on my truck I already accidentally collapsed when I swapped springs as I used a bottle jack on the axle pad to shove the rear axle downward and oops - I wasn't watching and it pushed on the bump stop........... it freaked me out a bit but did no damage. The axle has a flat plate where the stop makes contact with the axle so there'd likely be no real damage to that, the bump stop in my case - is still fine but I didn't look up inside it to see if I did any damage to the inside (they are hollow)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I carry a motorcycle in my hitch and do 80+ miles an hour. I sense no flex in The frame. I pulled a 7x15 cargo trailer . Sense no flex . Pull a 16foot boat , none. . Haul a heap of wet firewood. Max payload. No flex . Articulate fully with 37s on and only get 1/4 “ of twist in the frame max. The frames are impressive. Scrapes on the hitch are obviously of no concern.

That's really got nothing to do with the proven damage that some have taken. You are hauling payload - the load is on the normal points. A motorcycle on the hitch on a road at 80, still apples and oranges.
Everyone is ignoring the forces that actually do this. I hauled 1800 pounds in the bed of my truck - of course it's not going to flex the frame one bit! Why would it and how could it?
Articulating also has nothing to do with the frame bending down from the area of the shocks on back. That's because the truck is still normally supported on the springs and normal frame areas on those cases.
Pulling a boat won't do any damage unless you drive too fast over extreme terrain. And a boat being a low profile thing won't have the same impact as something higher when you hit the brakes.
A camper or small overland trailer will have weight up higher and when you do anything that suddenly changes speed or direction of the tow vehicle, the weight that is above the axle on that trailer is now suddenly transformed into tongue weight. If there's 100 pounds 3 feet above the axle, that 300 pounds becomes a moving mass with the energy of motion plus the 300 pounds and it's moved forward and down against the hitch. But towing normally, it's simply weight above the trailer's axle.
Curt and etrailer and others have info on this sort of thing.

 

[bleda2002]

Let me run this by you - the work of the shock absorber is to slow motions, absorb impacts. What happens if you slam a load on a normally working shock? Not compress it by leaning on the truck or putting weight on it, but smacking it hard? The oil has to go through small controlled holes - and can't do it fast. So in effect, if the load comes down hard enough, the shock becomes more like a solid object. How fast can you compress a shock absorber? Can you make it compress in 1 second? 2 seconds? Or do these work in a way that the faster and harder they are hit, the more quickly they collapse? Is there a bypass that opens under xx psi of force allowing a shock to go from fully expanded to compressed in 1 or 2 seconds?
I know the old Monroe shock testing thing we used to have - you could not shove down on the handle hard and fast and get the shock to collapse. Maybe these are different? I know they have to work fairly quickly or your axle will leave the road on a washboard road.............. but how fast?
I ask because on engineer said the shock area was the fulcrum area - and that makes sense so the bump stop may not have been hit if that were the case.

Overland may be very different - but the stops on my truck I already accidentally collapsed when I swapped springs as I used a bottle jack on the axle pad to shove the rear axle downward and oops - I wasn't watching and it pushed on the bump stop........... it freaked me out a bit but did no damage. The axle has a flat plate where the stop makes contact with the axle so there'd likely be no real damage to that, the bump stop in my case - is still fine but I didn't look up inside it to see if I did any damage to the inside (they are hollow)

The mojave actually does have a bypass for the hard hits, they are internal bypass shocks. I do not know the compression factor on the mojave shocks though but they are indeed bypass.

When i say the bump stop cups, i mean the steel that the rubber bumper is held in. That hits the flat part of the axle and either the axle or the bump stop are going to have to give unless they are stronger than the frame. On the raptors the bump stop cup (the actual steel opening) is designed as a crumple spot to actually absorb this kind of force before the frame bends.


Here is an old article on it from the raptor when this damage happened, notice the picture looks exactly like this and the SVT boss explains what happened:

"Basically, the core – the root cause – is that the vehicle is traveling too fast for the obstacle, and the truck is running out of travel. By a large margin. They're going too fast for the obstacle by a large margin. The frame is not the first item to yield in that condition – despite what's been theorized, the first thing when you do exceed the vehicle's travel capability [is that] you have a certain safety zone where you will hit the bump stop and nothing will happen. If you hit that same obstacle at an even faster speed, then you will yield the jounce bumper cup – that's the little piece of steel that holds the jounce bumper. If you hit that same obstacle at an even greater speed, then the next thing to go is the frame.
"

 

[bleda2002]

This is the bump stop cup jounce cup, whatever you want to call it, notice the little cup with the flat lip designed to hit on a bottom out. The cup and the spot it sits on look like a crumple spot to me given the thiness of the material and the lack of reinforcement. Lets ask the OP for a picture of those and see what they look like.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I figured the Mojave would have to have bypass, or assumed, because it's made for "Sand running" (they actually have a sand runner model sold over-seas)

Below is a bent frame, bent downward as designed to do.

The guy in the video explains how the forces can combine to bend things and uses his hands to sort of show the movement and forces involved.
Obviously frame bends DO happen - there's no doubting that. And in almost all cases, it's abuse, speed, combined with other factors. You don't just bend a frame normal driving, ain't gonna happen, but it DOES happen off-road.

Lets ask the OP for a picture of those and see what they look like.

Don't you find it interesting that there's been no real photos offered up? Nothing from UNDER the truck? Hmmmmm. Only that receiver. If there's a pic of that - why not slide around and take 2 more pics of the bump stops and frame??

My bet is this - there is a bent frame and it's not as innocent as first implied.
That's my bet. And if I'm wrong I'll owe ya a beer.
My puzzle solving, pattern recognition is kicking into high gear and there's just wrong things missing. This is a headline with no story.
This just doesn't feel right.
Why not PROVE it was innocent and try to get us all gathered together blasting that stupid dealer for even SUGGESTING it wasn't warranty? First thing I do if something like that happened to me would be to post an album of 40 pictures of every angle and get photos of me out on the trail, and provide proof of what I was and was not doing, get forum members to back me and win over public opinion.
But I see no pictures here of the frame, of the bump stops (yes, good pic and I had missed those weaker metal parts when thinking back of how I thought I had destroyed mine when jacking the axle down)

 

[MrZappo]

As a tie breaker, I asked my wife and she says that stiff is better than light.

I'm going with that.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As a tie breaker, I asked my wife and she says that stiff is better than light.

I'm going with that.

As long as it's not high carbon steel...........

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