"Lifetime", Lifeguard 8-9 Speed ATF (Is this semi-synthetic oil good "forever"??) 24k kms.

[CrazyCooter]

Wow, this is crazy.......

I'm an Amsoil dealer and always make sure to only install their cheaper "API licensed" products in client vehicles that are under factory warranty. I've heard that Amsoil will stand behind you if there is ever a problem, but how long will that take and what will in entail?

I was wanting to change my trans fluid at maybe 50K and if I do, it will be with OEM parts only after reading this! Lucky mine is the ZF trans assembled in Germany? Maybe it wont have glycol in the oil?

I feel for you.......

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[Mr._Bill]

The “advise” was more like “ALERT! Tests indicate the need to CHANGE OIL AND FILTER”

That’s pretty strong language that doesn’t sound like Chrysler’s language “recommending” this or that. That word to me is “a suggestion” …like a waiter suggesting what wine you should have with your dinner, take it or leave it. A “red light” or play ground speed sign isn’t a “suggestion” or recommendation. Get my meaning?

The service manager (at that time) commended me for my attention and effort to correct the situation, then shook his head, looking at the analysis and said the flush is better “sooner than later”. He then had to speak for Chrysler and warned what could happen and wished me luck.

This is going to be big for Canadian case law. I’m actually looking forward to seeing this through. Someone has to start it. You folks down south have the Magnuson Moss Act, right? Do you like having the lawful right to choose your lubricants that meet or exceed manufacturer codes and specs? Do you appreciate that?

Here’s an important detail I haven’t shared here. I sent in a photo of AMSOIL’s ATF I used and on the back of it are all these compliance codes. There is one number for Chrysler MOPAR. That number did not comply with today’s current number which supersedes the number on the bottle and that is where DSM voided my warranty.

I contacted AMSOIL about this. They sent me the data sheet for that oil I used showing today’s current code numbers that matched what the service manager provided and said “there are too many compliance numbers to list all of them on the backs of the bottles”. I shared that data sheet to him and he quit his job.

Your warranty was not voided, which you have confirmed. Warranty coverage for this repair was denied. Chrysler's official stance was the fluid change was not necessary. Instead of having the dealer do the work, which would have ensured warranty coverage, you took it to an independent shop to have the work done. Chrysler cannot be held legally responsible for the transmission, because you took it to an independent shop and had work done that they advised against doing. This is why you will lose. You may gain some ground in using equivalent fluids, or having recommended work done at independent shops, but you will not get your transmission replacement paid for.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Do they advise against doing it? Is it stated that way?
So if they suggest 10 year cooling system maintenance and you do it at 50,000 - did they advise against it and can you get into trouble?
Is doing maintenance sooner than recommended a problem because they adviser against it?
Just wondering......... if that's the case people need to stop changing axle lube and other maintenance sooner than "recommended".


Under normal operating conditions, the fluid installed at the
factory will give satisfactory lubrication for the life of the
vehicle. If the fluid becomes contaminated with water, it
should be changed immediately. Otherwise, change the fluid
as recommended in the Maintenance Plan.

So define normal operating conditions.

Doesn't matter what shop otherwise we'd all be restricted to legit Jeep dealerships for all oil changes and axle work like lube changes.

Lucky mine is the ZF trans assembled in Germany?

More likely made in the states, SC.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Do they advise against doing it? Is it stated that way?
So if they suggest 10 year cooling system maintenance and you do it at 50,000 - did they advise against it and can you get into trouble?
Is doing maintenance sooner than recommended a problem because they adviser against it?
Just wondering......... if that's the case people need to stop changing axle lube and other maintenance sooner than "recommended".


Under normal operating conditions, the fluid installed at the
factory will give satisfactory lubrication for the life of the
vehicle. If the fluid becomes contaminated with water, it
should be changed immediately. Otherwise, change the fluid
as recommended in the Maintenance Plan.

So define normal operating conditions.

Doesn't matter what shop otherwise we'd all be restricted to legit Jeep dealerships for all oil changes and axle work like lube changes.



More likely made in the states, SC.

Said Germany on the sticker, so that's why I though maybe.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Said Germany on the sticker, so that's why I though maybe.

Maybe it was, then. They do make their 8 and 9 speed transmissions in the states, too.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Your warranty was not voided, which you have confirmed. Warranty coverage for this repair was denied. Chrysler's official stance was the fluid change was not necessary. Instead of having the dealer do the work, which would have ensured warranty coverage, you took it to an independent shop to have the work done. Chrysler cannot be held legally responsible for the transmission, because you took it to an independent shop and had work done that they advised against doing. This is why you will lose. You may gain some ground in using equivalent fluids, or having recommended work done at independent shops, but you will not get your transmission replacement paid for.

Void, restricted, covered repair denied etc, etc….it’s all the same when replacement is made to be my cost when, on its face, warranty is clean and no flags present on file. Smoke and mirrors. The grand and almighty DSM, displayed at day one and will always display here in after malice against me …you sure my warranty is clear with him at the helm? Will a clear warranty on file actually matter when the minions below look way up to ask for his direction?

 

[Mr._Bill]

Void, restricted, covered repair denied etc, etc….it’s all the same when replacement is made to be my cost when, on its face, warranty is clean and no flags present on file. Smoke and mirrors. The grand and almighty DSM, displayed at day one and will always display here in after malice against me …you sure my warranty is clear with him at the helm? Will a clear warranty on file actually matter when the minions below look way up to ask for his direction?

That's an issue with repairs that need his approval. The only way around it is to have the dealer do the transmission replacement.

 

[LostWoods]

The “advise” was more like “ALERT! Tests indicate the need to CHANGE OIL AND FILTER”

That’s pretty strong language that doesn’t sound like Chrysler’s language “recommending” this or that. That word to me is “a suggestion” …like a waiter suggesting what wine you should have with your dinner, take it or leave it. A “red light” or play ground speed sign isn’t a “suggestion” or recommendation. Get my meaning?

The service manager (at that time) commended me for my attention and effort to correct the situation, then shook his head, looking at the analysis and said the flush is better “sooner than later”. He then had to speak for Chrysler and warned what could happen and wished me luck.

This is going to be big for Canadian case law. I’m actually looking forward to seeing this through. Someone has to start it. You folks down south have the Magnuson Moss Act, right? Do you like having the lawful right to choose your lubricants that meet or exceed manufacturer codes and specs? Do you appreciate that?

Here’s an important detail I haven’t shared here. I sent in a photo of AMSOIL’s ATF I used and on the back of it are all these compliance codes. There is one number for Chrysler MOPAR. That number did not comply with today’s current number which supersedes the number on the bottle and that is where DSM voided my warranty.

I contacted AMSOIL about this. They sent me the data sheet for that oil I used showing today’s current code numbers that matched what the service manager provided and said “there are too many compliance numbers to list all of them on the backs of the bottles”. I shared that data sheet to him and he quit his job.

These companies have two arms: (1) tests for industry, where industry knows their thresholds and the company provides data, and (2) tests for the consumer, where they set universal, very tight thresholds because fear sells. These companies always use very strong language to scare you into thinking something is wrong when they have no idea what the tolerable levels are for different manufacturers. They don't know better than the OEMs despite what they will tell you. A certain glycol level may be present due to assembly, but that number may never rise during the normal life of the vehicle and odds are, it will have no impact. What's dangerous is rising levels and your test does not show that unless you can show an established history and that established history exceeds the OEM thresholds.

Also, Service Managers are there to retain customers so of course they're going to be kind to you up when their hands are tied because they know there's nothing you can expect them to do. Don't feel flattered because they're effectively the customer-facing HR for the service department - they're there to protect the company and nothing else.

The reality here is that Amsoil is the company who certifies their product and they are the ones claiming it exceeds OEM standards. That doesn't mean Jeep has to honor that and it doesn't mean that certification is legitimate. You've already admitted to servicing a transmission with a fluid not approved by Chrysler so if you want to chase anyone, it's Amsoil.

 

[rharr]

So do your service and leave no trace. This whole thing is a game, where each party is blowing smoke up eachs...

Plausible deniability

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Ok, do we all want to see the smoking gun here? You know that moment you read something and all of a sudden you have that “oh SHIT” moment? (Read the first line SLOWLY. There’s two parts to the first line. GRASP THE LANGUAGE in the second part. There’s a very small two letter word in there that changes everything)

This is a case of malice, influence peddling, extortion and slander, all for personal profit.

 

[Mr._Bill]

Ok, do we all want to see the smoking gun here? You know that moment you read something and all of a sudden you have that “oh SHIT” moment? (Read the first line SLOWLY. There’s two parts to the first line. GRASP THE LANGUAGE in the second part. There’s a very small two letter word in there that changes everything)

This is a case of malice, influence peddling, extortion and slander, all for personal profit.

Does the manufacturer of the transmission fluid you used claim it is the equivalent of the Mopar fluid that Jeep requires to be used? Does Chrysler recognize it as an equivalent fluid?

You had a flush done at an independent shop, not a fluid and filter change at the dealer. They will refer to the below section in the Owner's Manual. They will ask for proof that the independent shop has the 'Special Tools' and training required to properly service the transmission. They will ask if the independent shop can prove there was no fluid or chemicals introduced into the transmission from previous uses of the flush machine. They will ask for proof that the transmission fluid you chose to have installed is the equivalent of the required fluid.

I'm looking at this strictly from a Legal Point of View and what the court will require to determine that Chrysler is legally responsible for your transmission. I don't see how you can win. You are determined, and have support for your cause, but no one has offered an opinion or advice on how to win this one in court.


Automatic Transmission — If Equipped
Selection Of Lubricant
It is important to use the proper transmission fluid to ensure optimum transmission performance and life. Use only the manufacturer's specified transmission fluid. Refer to “Fluids And Lubricants” in “Technical Specifications” for fluid specifications. It is important to maintain the transmission fluid at the correct level using the recommended fluid.
Note:
No chemical flushes should be used in any transmission; only the approved lubricant should be used.
CAUTION:
Using a transmission fluid other than the manufacturer’s recommended fluid may cause deterioration in transmission shift quality and/or torque converter shudder. Refer to “Fluids And Lubricants” in “Technical Specifications” for fluid specifications.
Special Additives
The manufacturer strongly recommends against using any special additives in the transmission. Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) is an engineered product and its performance may be impaired by supplemental additives. Therefore, do not add any fluid additives to the transmission. Avoid using transmission sealers as they may adversely affect seals.
CAUTION:
Do not use chemical flushes in your transmission as the chemicals can damage your transmission components. Such damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
Fluid Level Check
The fluid level is preset at the factory and does not require adjustment under normal operating conditions. Routine fluid level checks are not required; therefore the transmission has no dipstick. An authorized dealer can check your transmission fluid level using special service tools. If you notice fluid leakage or transmission malfunction, visit an authorized dealer immediately to have the transmission fluid level checked. Operating the vehicle with an improper fluid level can cause severe transmission damage.
CAUTION:
If a transmission fluid leak occurs, visit an authorized dealer immediately. Severe transmission damage may occur. An authorized dealer has the proper tools to adjust the fluid level accurately.
Fluid And Filter Changes
Under normal operating conditions, the fluid installed at the factory will provide satisfactory lubrication for the life of the vehicle.
Routine fluid and filter changes are not required. However, change the fluid and filter if the fluid becomes contaminated (with water, etc.), or if the transmission is disassembled for any reason.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I find the Jeep manual's chart quite interesting. You can use any oil that meets specs, any filter that meets specs, any coolant of the proper type that meets specs - but when it comes to differentials, transfer cases, brake fluid - they give you no real choice.
If you blow out a drive pinion bearing in the rear differential and have ever changed out fluid - they can point to this and ask - did you use what we recommend? And if not, you are done.
But the words AND and OR have pretty clear legal meaning in many places. Take a car title, a bank account, your IRA - is the word AND in there, or is it OR?
In a title, you can't transfer it without both signatures if it's registered with AND between the names. If the word OR is in there and you want to sell it, only your signature is required. You know the drill - house, mortgage, accounts, investments, titles - OR or AND?
Jeep says "use only............ OR equivalent"
For brake fluid - they don't word it strongly but still it's pretty clear they recommend only one fluid - theirs. Wipe out the ABS accumulator and you've put in O'Reilly DOT3 brake fluid - seriously who would ever know if you keep your mouth shut but still...........
I concentrate on the words "OR EQUIVALENT" and if AMSOIL says "it IS the equivalent, here are the specs" then you have followed this chart exactly as it's worded - you used the equivalent. It clearly says you can.

I'm not saying what's going to happen, what the next course of action could or should be or who has what chances of winning, but the chart is very clear.
For oil it's "meeting the requirements of......."
For filter or coolant or transmission fluid it's "OR equivalent"
For differentials/axles, brake fluid, transfer case it looks like you had better use MOPAR fluid as there is no OR in there! It plainly says "we recommend xyz" and without any "or equivalent".

So be warned - you tell him he loses because he used AMSOIL fluid which although meets their requirements and is technically the equivalent, you then go on and brag about how you've changed your axle lube and used any other brand - and yet for differentials there IS NO "OR".

So isn't this sauce for the gander here? You say he screwed up and used different fluid but there's an OR EQUIVALENT
And you explain about changing your axle lube to some other brand when clearly there is NO "or equivalent" on those lines as if you've done something better.

So - which is it?
I submit this:
If he's wrong, then every person who has changed differential lube is more wrong based on this chart from the book.

Admit it - how many here have not followed this chart exactly? If you didn't use MOPAR fluid in your transfer case, differentials or manual transmission - you can't seriously blast him for using some other brand, can you?

Use only the manufacturer's specified transmission fluid. Refer to “Fluids And Lubricants” in “Technical Specifications” for fluid specifications.

And clearly he did exactly what that says - "or equivalent". AMSOIL sent him the sheet showing it meets those specs so is equivalent.
And yet those who have changed axle fluids have not - they specifically tell you what they recommend, not "or equivalent". If you don't use Mopar Gear & Axle Lubricant as recommended, you have not followed the chart.

Again, we're all armchair attorneys here, only a real one can advise on his chances, what it's going to cost him if he loses, what he may - or may not -gain if he wins. That's what they are supposed to do. but I don't see this as cut and dried either. Two words in that chart, and the words AMSOIL have provided. Will Jeep throw at him the fact service wasn't recommended - I'd expect them to.......... and who knows how that will go. Isn't it all conjecture since we aren't bar certified? (well, depending on your definition of bar, maybe some of us are! LOL)

But if we blast this situation based only on the fact he used non-MOPAR fluid, then hey, all of you who changed your differential lube - you might want to delete your posts because if you lose a bearing or gears, MOPAR ain't gonna be of any help. You did not follow their chart and admitted as much publicly.

 

[Mr._Bill]

I have no direct experience with the Canadian legal system. I'm pointing out that having the fluid change done at a shop that is not Chrysler authorized, based on the wording in the Owner's Manual, is likely enough to alleviate them of legal responsibility for the transmission. A good lawyer, which Chrysler has plenty of, will use the issues I raised to create reasonable doubt and make a win difficult. The planned consultation with an attorney is an important step in determining whether or not to pursue legal action.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

In the states, it would be easier as we have things to protect us against having to use specific dealers and certain other things. Transmissions are going to be more tricky, but then again - who knows about the shop in this instance.
I was authorized to do Compaq warranty work myself for a while........ I've been authorized for other smaller things in the past. For all we know, that shop may have been certified, dunno. Could have been a shop that was run by someone's grandfather 50 years ago and still does transmission work. Too many variables but yeah, you know they'd be digging deep for that sort of thing - even if the shop had some sort of certification, did the tech? Too many unknowns - that won't be unknown to FCA/Stellantis for very long for sure.
When a poor independent sign maker in Florida gets letters from mother MOPAR telling him cease and desist selling anything with the AMC logo on it - you know they are watching and have enough money they can even threaten a guy who is reproducing a logo for a vehicle MOPAR raped and pillaged decades ago and has zero interest in reviving! Right - we're going to see them brand anything with the AMC logo - that's so laughable, but they went after this guy who probably sold 500 items in a year to private owners of old cars.
That's scary.

 

[Marine2947]

The lab instructed to do it to get the glycol out. The dealership was unwilling to do it as they were not set up to do a flush and would charge me $3400 for two pan drops.

How many quarts is needed for a complete trans oil flush?

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