Loose Steering?

[jrf]

Does it get better gas mileage with lower pressure? Lol

I HEARD, no substantial evidence, that part of what they were doing was shutting down the PS pump where there was no input to the wheel. When you started to turn the wheel the pump kicked back on. Thus saving load on the alternator thus saving fuel consumption. It's the only reason I could see to have an electric pump on a Jeep. Otherwise...may as well just put it on the engine and let it be driven constantly. It's not like that engine bay is so cramped they couldn't fit it on the engine.

I've always meant to look at the pump and see if I could figure out the wiring and actually test that theory. Be nice to figure out if you could just bypass the whole computer part and make the pump run constantly...that would tell a story too.

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[techteacher]

Here is a side by side of before and after the drag link replacement. Definite improvement made. Dead space is now limited to a gap to the left. I would say the driving experience is better. Also think there has got to be a way to tighten down that dead zone.

 

[JimThe4th]

I HEARD, no substantial evidence, that part of what they were doing was shutting down the PS pump where there was no input to the wheel. When you started to turn the wheel the pump kicked back on. Thus saving load on the alternator thus saving fuel consumption. It's the only reason I could see to have an electric pump on a Jeep. Otherwise...may as well just put it on the engine and let it be driven constantly. It's not like that engine bay is so cramped they couldn't fit it on the engine.

I've always meant to look at the pump and see if I could figure out the wiring and actually test that theory. Be nice to figure out if you could just bypass the whole computer part and make the pump run constantly...that would tell a story too.

Interesting thought. I have noticed that the alternator does NOT output a constant 14.4V. It ramps up and down depending on conditions. I will see if I can tie the voltage to turning...

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Interesting thought. I have noticed that the alternator does NOT output a constant 14.4V. It ramps up and down depending on conditions. I will see if I can tie the voltage to turning...

My 2011 silverado did the same thing - I mean voltage-wise.
It might read a bit over 14 at one point, then 15 a few minutes later, then a bit under 14, back up to over 15. Which is weird - old-school systems ran a regulated voltage that was pretty tight. It might drop if you were running slow with a large electric load, but it never went above the regulated voltage of about 14.2 depending on the car/truck, year, and so on.

With the PCM handling voltage regulation now it's conceivable that it knows when there's a great load and ramps things up, but still, wild swings aren't good either. EFI is voltage sensitive, swings in voltage can send a PCM or other modules for a loop.
I scope alternators I restore to ensure the output is pretty flat, minimal ripple and solid, steady output as some guys I restore for have installed EFI and other systems.
I never did find a pattern to my Silverado's voltage swings but it went as long as I needed it to with zero electrical issues for 9 years before I sold it.

IF a PS pump was off while there was no input - the first fraction of a second you tried to turn it would be resistance, not play. That's because there'd be no assist. It doesn't seem to follow that it would be loose - if anything, it should feel like you hit something that moved away real quickly as the pump kicked in.
But - this is an interesting area................
IF it was possible to access the feed to the pump, a person could rig a volt meter to read at the pump but with sealed connections it wouldn't be easy at all.
Very true that it's an energy saving thing to cut the pump when you are sitting at a stop light or sign, or it's warming up on a 20 degree day, that sort of thing. It's one reason electric fans are used - no HP taken from the engine if cooling isn't needed.
There's no reason to run the pump or the fans when there's no call for them.

Some of those with loose steering are talking - and proving, play in the steering sector. They can move the shaft several degrees with no corresponding movement from the pitman. Mine on the other hand, I can't turn the shaft at all without strong resistance and immediate movement from the pitman.

 

[The Acme Company]

This B.S. about improperly torqued components and out of tolerance steering boxes has got to stop.

This mis-information has been perpetuated from 2018 with the release of the JL Wrangler.

Does anyone believe that after 2 years of JL production that there are still out of spec steering boxes being installed in JT’s?

Do any of you have real life experience in a motor vehicle assembly plant?

My experience is dated but I can tell you that as far back as the late ‘90’s, all critical fasteners requiring Torque used a $20k Stanley wrench that recorded the fasteners torque and stored the information in a database tied to the vin. That way if you claimed your wheel fell off going down the road, the manufacturer could supply your attorney during discovery the build sheet with torque settings proving the factory was not at fault.

As far as cross threading—I doubt this to be true. Assembly workers are highly trained. They build thousands of vehicles a day. They know how to start bolts and properly complete the installation process. If they feel something is not right they can mark the vehicle and have it repaired at the end of the line.

Most of the drifting/wander is tire related and will disappear between 1500 and 4000 miles running a stock setup.

If there was even a small thread of truth to a real steering issue, do you not think that after 2 production years, going on three, that there would be a massive, government issued recall?

Where is it?

 

[Gatorized]

This B.S. about improperly torqued components and out of tolerance steering boxes has got to stop.

This mis-information has been perpetuated from 2018 with the release of the JL Wrangler.

Does anyone believe that after 2 years of JL production that there are still out of spec steering boxes being installed in JT’s?

Do any of you have real life experience in a motor vehicle assembly plant?

My experience is dated but I can tell you that as far back as the late ‘90’s, all critical fasteners requiring Torque used a $20k Stanley wrench that recorded the fasteners torque and stored the information in a database tied to the vin. That way if you claimed your wheel fell off going down the road, the manufacturer could supply your attorney during discovery the build sheet with torque settings proving the factory was not at fault.

As far as cross threading—I doubt this to be true. Assembly workers are highly trained. They build thousands of vehicles a day. They know how to start bolts and properly complete the installation process. If they feel something is not right they can mark the vehicle and have it repaired at the end of the line.

Most of the drifting/wander is tire related and will disappear between 1500 and 4000 miles running a stock setup.

If there was even a small thread of truth to a real steering issue, do you not think that after 2 production years, going on three, that there would be a massive, government issued recall?

Where is it?

It’s all well and good to have work instructions to fall back on, but it does not take into account the user of those instructions. Everyone has a bad day now and then, and that sometimes results in missed checks or failure to follow instructions.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This B.S. about improperly torqued components and out of tolerance steering boxes has got to stop.

This mis-information has been perpetuated from 2018 with the release of the JL Wrangler.

Does anyone believe that after 2 years of JL production that there are still out of spec steering boxes being installed in JT’s?

Do any of you have real life experience in a motor vehicle assembly plant?

My experience is dated but I can tell you that as far back as the late ‘90’s, all critical fasteners requiring Torque used a $20k Stanley wrench that recorded the fasteners torque and stored the information in a database tied to the vin. That way if you claimed your wheel fell off going down the road, the manufacturer could supply your attorney during discovery the build sheet with torque settings proving the factory was not at fault.

As far as cross threading—I doubt this to be true. Assembly workers are highly trained. They build thousands of vehicles a day. They know how to start bolts and properly complete the installation process. If they feel something is not right they can mark the vehicle and have it repaired at the end of the line.

Most of the drifting/wander is tire related and will disappear between 1500 and 4000 miles running a stock setup.

If there was even a small thread of truth to a real steering issue, do you not think that after 2 production years, going on three, that there would be a massive, government issued recall?

Where is it?

Highly trained like the techs doing the repairs in the shop and putting 6 quarts in a 5 quart system. OK.

We have proof of the cross-threaded fasteners.
I have posted PROOF that it happens - with the parts I bought that were taken right out of an auto assembly plant in Kenosha.
NOS parts, in the boxes, improperly assembled. Stripped and cross-threaded.

My wife's Grand Cherokee - left the factory with faulty driver door glass, another left the factory with a faulty headliner.
Impossible, the factory workers are highly trained and would have seen that and flagged those vehicles and they would have been fixed, never left the plant. Those highly trained workers did let them go through that way.
My JT arrived with the bed cover screwed up. The left side sticking straight out, the bolts holding it to the box stripped and rough. But they are highly trained and would have never let it leave that way...... It did. Star case started on it. It left with bolt heads screwed up from torx bits slipping.

I guess the feds getting involved in the frame weld problems is impossible, too - broken and cracked welds, welds that never penetrated the steel of the frame, and more.

We've discussed the lack of a recall - how about 3 years FCA finally recalled certain Grand Cherokees - known problems and finally, a recall. THREE years after the fact.
MAssive recall? This is a problem with a few, not half, not even a quarter of them, it surely wouldn't be massive.

We've also seen proof of the steering box issue - the dealers are actually starting to recognize it - and when you can turn the column by hand with no reaction from the pitman..........

If it was tire related, every single truck out there would have such issues.
LOOSENESS in the wheel isn't about tires, it's about steering components. This isn't about wander - it's about the play in the wheel. Have you seen the comparison videos? I posted mine - zero play, and I've worked directly with a person who can actually turn the steering wheel 2" with no response from the front wheels.
This is about the JT - a year, not about the other vehicles.
Check out my poll.
It's not wander, it's not drift, it's not pull, it's the wheel has to be turned 2" before the steering actually responds.
It's about the shaft being turned but no response from the pitman, It's about one member here actually taking the play out of his steering sector.

How do you explain finding actually cross-threaded fasteners- two of them. You suggesting the techs involved in the finding were full of BS and don't know how to tell? Having worked on the repair side, the parts side of things, I can believe it.

So tell the people who have trouble keeping their JT in lane, where they have to move the wheel 2" to get a response they are idiots and don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Factoid]

This B.S. about improperly torqued components and out of tolerance steering boxes has got to stop.

This mis-information has been perpetuated from 2018 with the release of the JL Wrangler.

Does anyone believe that after 2 years of JL production that there are still out of spec steering boxes being installed in JT’s?

Do any of you have real life experience in a motor vehicle assembly plant?

My experience is dated but I can tell you that as far back as the late ‘90’s, all critical fasteners requiring Torque used a $20k Stanley wrench that recorded the fasteners torque and stored the information in a database tied to the vin. That way if you claimed your wheel fell off going down the road, the manufacturer could supply your attorney during discovery the build sheet with torque settings proving the factory was not at fault.

As far as cross threading—I doubt this to be true. Assembly workers are highly trained. They build thousands of vehicles a day. They know how to start bolts and properly complete the installation process. If they feel something is not right they can mark the vehicle and have it repaired at the end of the line.

Most of the drifting/wander is tire related and will disappear between 1500 and 4000 miles running a stock setup.

If there was even a small thread of truth to a real steering issue, do you not think that after 2 production years, going on three, that there would be a massive, government issued recall?

Where is it?

Man, if even there was a time for a “Dislike” button, it’s this post.

When troubleshooting or determining root cause analysis there are two kinds of informations: anecdotal (conjecture) and empirical (proven fact). Anecdotal is conjecture or apparent observation, but it is not proven fact. Often anecdotal data is used to set up testing protocols to create empirical or factual, proven data. Using anecdotal data to draw conclusions without empirical analysis is a fools errand.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Man, if even there was a time for a “Dislike” button, it’s this post.

When troubleshooting or determining root cause analysis there are two kinds of informations: anecdotal (conjecture) and empirical (proven fact). Anecdotal is conjecture or apparent observation, but it is not proven fact. Often anecdotal data is used to set up testing protocols to create empirical or factual, proven data. Using anecdotal data to draw conclusions without empirical analysis is a fools errand.

If ever there was a time for a mega-like button.............
You may be a performance coach but you explain as if you were Stephan Hawking's physics partner, eloquent, well said.

I could have added - if it all came down to tires, it would be harder to explain why Overland, Sport and Rubicon owners seem to have similar or the same "complaints" because each uses a different size tire, different type, and in the case of the Rubicon, width and brand and thread are different.

I've also privately chatted with people - and have seen their alignment sheets. In one case, I was a bit concerned that it CAME from the factory so far off. Total toe was bad - with the wheel centered one would have been toe out quite a bit, the other in a bit, wheel not centered but the toe split evenly, the thing would have still been way off from 1/8" toe in. I was also a bit concerned about wander the way caster and camber looked.
That was printed evidence they don't always come perfect from the factory.

 

[JeepCares]

I made an appointment to take mine next Thursday. Have 450 miles on the Odometer.

Have 2 inches of play in center.

It’s not to annoying until I get cross winds or uneven road beds then it’s constant adjustments due to lack of being able to input proper corrections. It’s correct one way, then the other, then the other. I’m in the camp that believes this is a tolerance issue in the steering box.

Hi Josh,
If you would like to be connected with a Case Specialist to assist throughout your appointment, please feel free to send us a PM.
Alex
JeepCares

 

[Scrubb84]

Do I have to go thru the dealership I actually bought this at to Lemon Law it? Never had to do this before, but I think I’m done. Got the new steering box put in today....worse than the original.

 

[jrf]

Do I have to go thru the dealership I actually bought this at to Lemon Law it? Never had to do this before, but I think I’m done. Got the new steering box put in today....worse than the original.

You are going to need to get FCA to agree it's a "problem". That's how they have been getting around this one....

 

[Scrubb84]

You are going to need to get FCA to agree it's a "problem". That's how they have been getting around this one....

How do I get the “FCA” to drive it for 3 seconds cuz thats all it will take!?

 

[Keller]

I do not believe you have to go to the same dealer, just a Jeep dealer.

I’ve had one car repurchased under Lemon law for transmission issues the dealer admittedly could not fix and it was fairly smooth although I did have to stand firm on my position with the manufacturers support team. They tried at first to offer compensation, I said NO and they followed the law at that point.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Hard to imagine that if it's worse (and I am NOT doubting you) that they can't see or feel it. I mean - mine is not loose. A tad wander at times, depending on road, but no real play in the steering. You move it, it responds.
Makes one wonder if they even truly drive these with an open mind.

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