Reaching out to those doing their own shock tuning?

[ParatusExpeditions]

We want to see the video now ?

Sponsored

 

[CrazyCooter]

We want to see the video now ?

Is the producer is dragging his feet........Maybe by Christmas.....2024?

 

[CrazyCooter]

I just rolled over the scales at the dump with a bail of cardboard in the bed. 2 different scales both read 6820lb in with the bail and out without the bail. Obviously one of those scales is off by about 200lb. 6620 with me in the truck sounds about right.......

Pretty crazy how much over GVWR this truck is without anything super crazy on board. RockSlide steps, ARB 50qt cooler, Goosegear rear seat delete with misc tools/gear, Warn Zeon 10S in the OE steel bumper, Bestop roll topper, and a Hilift jack w/ heavy drop hitch in the bed. Jackery 1500 is also in the back seat right now.......Much of it is tires/wheels and a 37" spare even though I went with super light Method 313's?

Last time I weighed I was much closer to the GVWR, but I'm sure the Clayton control arms in the Overland plus kit I installed added up here too.......

Maybe I should ditch the recovery gear and tools since I have never used them?

 

[PackMule]

I just rolled over the scales at the dump with a bail of cardboard in the bed. 2 different scales both read 6820lb in with the bail and out without the bail. Obviously one of those scales is off by about 200lb. 6620 with me in the truck sounds about right.......

Pretty crazy how much over GVWR this truck is without anything super crazy on board. RockSlide steps, ARB 50qt cooler, Goosegear rear seat delete with misc tools/gear, Warn Zeon 10S in the OE steel bumper, Bestop roll topper, and a Hilift jack w/ heavy drop hitch in the bed. Jackery 1500 is also in the back seat right now.......Much of it is tires/wheels and a 37" spare even though I went with super light Method 313's?

Last time I weighed I was much closer to the GVWR, but I'm sure the Clayton control arms in the Overland plus kit I installed added up here too.......

Maybe I should ditch the recovery gear and tools since I have never used them?

Yup,
In planning my build I set up a spreadsheet on what NEEDED to add, and what I WANTED to add, and quickly found there was much on the WANT list that wasn't going to work in the plans.

Here's what I guessed on much of the same equipment you have:
Rockslide steps (net of factory RubiRails) 60#, Winch 80#, Highlift - 25#, Recovery gear 35#, 37's vs. factory Wildpeaks 50#, ARB fridge 50#, Goose Gear - probably a wash with the rear seat delete at - 70#, - ... add in the Jackery, Bestop cover, etc, If your tanks were full (140#), and you were full ;-) ... I'd have you guestimated at about 750-800# of your total 900ish payload. But my guestimates may be low.

As a comparison, I weighed my JT as soon as I drove it from the dealer,... 5510 on the door sticker, 5520 on the CAT, no driver, full tanks. - biggest difference between mine and yours stock would be the bumpers, mine plastic.

After Clayton lift, 37's (50#), SmartCap (180#), ARB twin (20#), 1/2 full tanks (-70#), 60% rear seat delete, (-50#), ....
.... on the CAT I was at 5740# - so I was up 220# from stock, where my calculated adds/deletes should have put me at 130#. Some of that could be the Clayton lift, but I don't think all of the 90# difference. Errors between the two measurements? A few other gear Items in the truck? Underestimate on my mods? I don't know.

I have seen some CAT measurements being off significantly... sometimes operator error.

 

[PackMule]

.......

Maybe I should ditch the recovery gear and tools since I have never used them?

Two suggestions on this...
1) replace the Highlift jack with an ARB jack pedestal, maybe add a bottle jack (and second pedistal)... then you have two jacks for less weight than the High Lift, in case you need to lift both the truck frame and support the axle to work on the suspension
2) keep the Winch, but put it on an aluminum bumper (steel winch plate) such as the MP Concepts aluminum that looks like the Mopar Steel.

Probably save 100lb with these mods

 

[PackMule]

Comment on possible recovery gear delete:

On our recent AZ Piece Trail trip, one guy in a Lexus (Toyota Land Cruiser with a V8) lost a nut off his front upper control arm, and lost all steering when the bolt worked loose. Obviously couldn't find the nut as it could have come out anywhere in the miles before. Fortunately, one guy on the trip had tools, and another guy in another Lexus had a replacement bolt and nut! Very fortunate as we were 15 mi from the nearest road on trails tough enough to incur body damage on a stock Ford Ranger Tremor. Could have ended the trip with an expensive recovery, instead finished 20 mi of moderate trails, and he drove out to Havasu to replace and recheck all of his control arm bolts.

A judicious selection of recovery gear and tools is good to have.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Ya, I was joking about the recovery gear and tool delete......There is no way I could get down below GVWR trip ready unless we went back to a ground tent and lived like backpacker......Why take the Jeep if I have to live like that?

 

[ParatusExpeditions]

Is the producer is dragging his feet........Maybe by Christmas.....2024?

I got a hold of the producer, he’s alive!

Anyway, I met @CrazyCooter and while I was there we thought we’d shoot a small video to talk about the subject which is suspension tuning and what are the advantages compared to a generic solution. I think most of y’all in this thread are pretty versed on the subject but feel free to share it with people that are just getting introduced to the topic maybe as a good introduction?

 

[CrazyCooter]

I finally got a look inside a Falcon shock today. They do some things a little different than most of the off road world.....

This was off a hemi swapped 1 ton JK on 40s. The owner has had leaking issues with this particular shock and he had it full of air. Now that he has 4 functioning shocks, we're going to see what I can do about his drivability without having to just buy new shocks.

 

[JT1]

I finally got a look inside a Falcon shock today. They do some things a little different than most of the off road world.....

This was off a hemi swapped 1 ton JK on 40s. The owner has had leaking issues with this particular shock and he had it full of air. Now that he has 4 functioning shocks, we're going to see what I can do about his drivability without having to just buy new shocks.

Don't leave us hanging! What do they do different compared to Fox or whoever. What caused the leak and what are you changing to make it better?

 

[CrazyCooter]

Don't leave us hanging! What do they do different compared to Fox or whoever. What caused the leak and what are you changing to make it better?

I'm not sure what the leak issue was as it had just been sent out to be rebuilt by TF last year. The owner had ordered a new adjustment cartridge probably damaged because it's at the bottom of the shock constantly grinding on rocks. My goal on this project was to get him a full set of functioning shocks and then he is supposed to reach out later to see what we can do for him.

They had just told him to add xx.xoz oil and put 100lb in it? Uh ya, its going to have a huge air pocket in it without bleeding and or vacuum? He knew enough to get it in to me since it had dead spots in it. At least there was a local outfit that had stock of the 5W Redline suspension fluid that they use......I bought them out so I'll have some for the future.

We discussed his potential handling issues. He runs them on "3" and they still bottom out easy. I rebuilt his rear Dana 60 last year and commented at that time that I thought it drove like "A crash looking for a place to happen". He has driven is the 1,000 miles one way to Moab and other places as well and thinks it's decent.

Being the first Falcon I've had in my hand or even really looked at.....I don't know much. I do know that this is a pre-SP2 version so no 2 stage selectable bleed on the piston head. Also no flutter on the comp stack (left) as all of the other off road shocks I have had apart do, but they do use a "Bleed shim" like the Elite Fox's. If you look at the rebound stack (right), there is 3 large dia. shims, 2 smaller shims, then a "Ring shim", followed by the next stage stack. I still far from an expert here, but this should allow a digressive rebound condition while using a linear piston with preload on the low speed shims controlled by those smaller dia shims that are indie or the ring shim.

I'm not sure if this guy is having a rebound issue without roadtesting over my test spots or maybe some video, but I definitely think he could benefit from some tricks on the compression side. Some of the shims I measured out are not something I've ever seen a listing for in a catalog, but I have some ideas to deal with that.

I have a source for seals now, but from what I have gathered, TF has done a great job at denying end users parts or repairs outside of sending them it for their own in house servicing. All the more reason to NOT buy them? This is consistent with the smoke, mirrors, and concealing spring rates. You buy into the cult, but are on your own if you decide to try something different?

Ideally this client would step up into some Clayton springs due to his weights and I could fix him up with a set of E-Clik's pretty easy. Assuming his corner weights are similar to the JT's, I would know where set up the fronts first try and probably get the rear within 2-3 revisions? With his TF springs or any other unknown rate, it's anyone's guess where to start. The Clayton's would give him the payload he needs, E-Cliks will net that firm controlled compliant drive on the pavement, and the off road he can dial in as he wants with the added benefit of SDi's internal bump zone.

 

[JT1]

I'm not sure what the leak issue was as it had just been sent out to be rebuilt by TF last year. The owner had ordered a new adjustment cartridge probably damaged because it's at the bottom of the shock constantly grinding on rocks. My goal on this project was to get him a full set of functioning shocks and then he is supposed to reach out later to see what we can do for him.

They had just told him to add xx.xoz oil and put 100lb in it? Uh ya, its going to have a huge air pocket in it without bleeding and or vacuum? He knew enough to get it in to me since it had dead spots in it. At least there was a local outfit that had stock of the 5W Redline suspension fluid that they use......I bought them out so I'll have some for the future.

We discussed his potential handling issues. He runs them on "3" and they still bottom out easy. I rebuilt his rear Dana 60 last year and commented at that time that I thought it drove like "A crash looking for a place to happen". He has driven is the 1,000 miles one way to Moab and other places as well and thinks it's decent.

Being the first Falcon I've had in my hand or even really looked at.....I don't know much. I do know that this is a pre-SP2 version so no 2 stage selectable bleed on the piston head. Also no flutter on the comp stack (left) as all of the other off road shocks I have had apart do, but they do use a "Bleed shim" like the Elite Fox's. If you look at the rebound stack (right), there is 3 large dia. shims, 2 smaller shims, then a "Ring shim", followed by the next stage stack. I still far from an expert here, but this should allow a digressive rebound condition while using a linear piston with preload on the low speed shims controlled by those smaller dia shims that are indie or the ring shim.

I'm not sure if this guy is having a rebound issue without roadtesting over my test spots or maybe some video, but I definitely think he could benefit from some tricks on the compression side. Some of the shims I measured out are not something I've ever seen a listing for in a catalog, but I have some ideas to deal with that.

I have a source for seals now, but from what I have gathered, TF has done a great job at denying end users parts or repairs outside of sending them it for their own in house servicing. All the more reason to NOT buy them? This is consistent with the smoke, mirrors, and concealing spring rates. You buy into the cult, but are on your own if you decide to try something different?

Ideally this client would step up into some Clayton springs due to his weights and I could fix him up with a set of E-Clik's pretty easy. Assuming his corner weights are similar to the JT's, I would know where set up the fronts first try and probably get the rear within 2-3 revisions? With his TF springs or any other unknown rate, it's anyone's guess where to start. The Clayton's would give him the payload he needs, E-Cliks will net that firm controlled compliant drive on the pavement, and the off road he can dial in as he wants with the added benefit of SDi's internal bump zone.

Thanks! interesting about the shim stacks.. I love reading about this stuff.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Thanks! interesting about the shim stacks.. I love reading about this stuff.

I have read about and seen a little bit on the "ring shims", but this is the first time I had them in my hand.....what a treat!

Year to date.......high end shock sales and modifications has grown to just over 25% of my business's total sales, so I will continue to invest more time, equipment, and inventory so long as that trend continues.

Obviously I love learning about it and helping others get what they desire from their setup too!

Just did a little project outside the Jeep norm.......2022 GM 3500 Cab/Chassis with a huge camper on board weighing right at 16K loaded. Built him a set of Fox 2.5's to control the weight and body roll.

 

[JT1]

I have read about and seen a little bit on the "ring shims", but this is the first time I had them in my hand.....what a treat!

Year to date.......high end shock sales and modifications has grown to just over 25% of my business's total sales, so I will continue to invest more time, equipment, and inventory so long as that trend continues.

Obviously I love learning about it and helping others get what they desire from their setup too!

Just did a little project outside the Jeep norm.......2022 GM 3500 Cab/Chassis with a huge camper on board weighing right at 16K loaded. Built him a set of Fox 2.5's to control the weight and body roll.

I know how you feel about the fox 2.5s, but have you had the king 2.5s apart? I'd prefer to stay with a 2" body, but there aren't many rebuildables that size and I'm trying to decide where to burn my next crop off the money tree.

 

[CrazyCooter]

I know how you feel about the fox 2.5s, but have you had the king 2.5s apart? I'd prefer to stay with a 2" body, but there aren't many rebuildables that size and I'm trying to decide where to burn my next crop off the money tree.

I have resealed King 2.5's for a Ram guy a few years back and thought they were quality, but I have yet to play with the valving on them. I have no problem tooling up and buying supplies for them, but there will have to be a certain amount of R&D that goes into it. I just don't want to just start pumping out unproven tuning that likley doesn't work with unknown springs like what we see so much of in the industry already.

I sold my first JT client (the one that made me want one) an Evo Enforcer Overland system with their Evo spec Kings and was less than impressed. The client didn't really tell me that he was going to build a 7,500lb+ truck so the springs sagged and the truck wobbled pretty bad. I've actually considered offering to loan him my Fox's while I come up with a tune for his Kings.........I have already been busy enough, so the thought of another R&R/tuning fest on yet another shock platform just doesn't sound all that fun now that it's warming up here. I took my wife for a ride in this truck on the roadtest during the gear job......Her reponse to me was "If we get one of these, it won't ride like this or I will get carsick".

If you have a light truck and don't drive fast off road in the heat, the 2.0's should cover you. I would absolutely spend the extra on the adjustable option. I think King has them (Only med speed)and the Fox's you have to add the adjuster to the resi. The sales guy at Fox advised me that the "Off the shelf" 2.0 Resi w/ CD adjusters were going away on all platforms so they would never offer them for the JT. It's probably about $200ea shock to add the adjuster......That makes a set of adjustable Fox 2.0's about $2100.......At that point, may as well step up to the 2.5's, get high/low speed adjustments and better control?

I leaned toward the Fox's because they were available and had a good name when I started this truck. I stick with them and the SDi's because I have proven tunes that work with Clayton's spring rates on JT's for sure and with a little modification out back, the JK's and JL's could be covered too. They all have positives and negatives, but most of these top tier shocks are good products.....this all comes down to basic hydraulic theory and how each manufacture achieves their goal.

While I was typing out that last message, the Falcon JK guy rolled in. I had to explain to him that I have no magic one shot bullet for him, but he needed to balance his expectations with his budget. I gave him a simple example.......I can probably make it 40% better first try, so if he is OK with that....He can stop. If he wants more we can keep going, but I can't keep his Jeep for weeks and a dozen revisions for $75 for shock.......... This is where the people here with JT's Fox's, SDi's and Clayton springs can get a badass tune off the shelf since I have done 48 revisions between the 2 platforms and it's pretty dialed.........I have my rears apart right now for another small tweak after the weekend camping trip and have to go finish so I have a ride home......

I think you should lean toward availability of parts and service in your area should you want work done OR buy one that someone has an off the shelf solution for.

Sponsored